186 replies to this topic

[Black glasses]

So... It seems we're not getting the full map (which has been in four out of four Hitman games) nor manual saves (which have been in three out of four Hitman games). I don't like this.

Reasons why I think the developers decided to remove the map:
- It showed too much information, making the game too easy (solution: don't make it show anything else than the level geometry, just like in Codename: 47)
- The levels are so linear there's no need for a map (solution: you should still give us the map, some of us have a very poor memory or sense of navigation. And what if I want to find the exit? Should I run back and forth aimlessly, possibly with enemies breathing on my neck?)
- It didn't fit the plot. 47 is on the run, and ICA won't be providing him anything, at least in the beginning when he's on the run. (solution: give us a blueprint instead of a hich-tech map)

Reasons why I think the developers should give us the full map:
- It would eliminate aimless wandering, imagine if you went on a holiday for a week or two and continue playing, you have no idea where to go.
- I have a very poor sense of navigation. I can get lost anywhere. How can I enjoy the game if I can't even find my way out of the library? How can I even play the game if I can't find my room? Give me maps and I will find my way forwards.
- It would fit the plot. 47 might be on the run, but that doesn't mean he can't prepare. I think 47 is able to find blueprints or at least a basic building map that is usually found on a wall on the first floor of buildings.
- If you don't want to use it, don't. You still have the mini-map.


Reasons why I think the developers decided to remove manual saves:
- They think the checkpoint system works better (you could still include auto-save at checkpoints and manual saves. Everyone's happy.)
- ???

Reasons why I think the developers should give us manual saves:
- To reduce frustration. Do you know the feeling when you've battled your way through hundreds of enemies and are just about to get to a checkpoint, you get killed thanks to being careless (a small enemy kills you, you fall into a trap, a glitch occurs, you lose electricity, you see Jesus on the window and when you're outside talking to him, something causes you to die in-game; anything). If you could have saved after killing the 500 enemies, you would have been a lot happier. You can include autosave at checkpoints and manual saves in the same game, you know?
- To save on funny/awesome moments. Do you know when something awesome or funny is about to happen, you save the game, and you can show it to all your friends? Like when in Hitman: Contracts you first put invisibility on, knock out every enemy and undress them all? Then they all will run in their underwear and do funny things. With manual saves you could save a lot time by not having to do the same thing again. Or maybe the funny/awesome thing/bug/glitch only occurs the first time you do it?
- To reduce time wasting. Do you know the feeling when you patiently wait at the roof with a sniper rifle for the target to appear? It's cool. But if you miss the shot or for any other reason have to start over, you would have to start again from the beginning and wait the long wait again. Of course, nothing beats a stoic waiting every once in a while, but that reduces the fun factor. Give us manual saves and we can save just before the shot.
- It makes everyone happy. The people who want to use manual saves will be happy and use them, while people who don't like them, don't use them. Both parties are happy. At the very least give us a Save&Quit option, that will save on the exact moment and place we save and that saves everything that can be saved. Not like in Legend of Zelda, where you end up in the beginning of the dungeon after save&quitting.

I hope this thread and poll will show the opinions of the Hitmanforum community. And if the results are showing a common opinion, maybe the developers could think again about removing these features.

So, thoughts, opinons? You can of course give your own reasons for/against the map and manual saves.

[sgg847]

They was discussed many times. Conclusion - they are old-fashioned and defective elements. Mini-map the same shit.

[Habit]

Who wants a new thread about a topic that's already been discussed a million times?

Yes 0%
No 100%

[Black glasses]

If there is a huge majority voting for yes on either or both, like in this case (http://forums.electr...ng-feature.html), maybe the developers would think about having these features again.

Maybe I'm just a fool because I would like to have some features from the previous games...

Anyway, I haven't seen these matters dicussed to death. If I had seen them discussed to death, I wouldn't have made this thread. Still, it's interesting to see how many would like to keep these features and how many are pleased to whatever is given to them. And why would anyone be against manual saves or the map? If you don't like them, don't use them.

[16-bit Irony]

I'm in the "don't care" section I' pretty sure IO won't nose dive they're best game franchise into the ground, but it's good to see some change in games from time to time.

[sgg847]

Like when in Hitman: Contracts you first put invisibility on, knock out every enemy and undress them all? Then they all will run in their underwear and do funny things. With manual saves you could save a lot time by not having to do the same thing again.

I would prefer undress a girl and make funny things with her. In that case manual saves are very good thing.

Or maybe the funny/awesome thing/bug/glitch only occurs the first time you do it?

All the time

Edited by sgg847, 18 October 2011 - 01:33 PM.

[abeg]

You speak like you know the game already? Seems to me you are thinking about this from a Blood Money gameplay perspective, from all we know the checkpoint system could be the best choice for the gameplay in Absolution. You write too much about stuff we don't know yet. This thread can be great when we know alittle bit more about the game. Peace.

[Keyser Soze]

Right now I think I want the map, it's difficult to say without playing the actual game and seeing if it feels needed.

Manual saves... I always played on Pro, so I don't much care about saves. I don't like the sound of 'checkpoint' though. If it autosaves at certain spots, that's fine. Checkpoints, to me, indicate a spot in the game that you have to reach, and can not turn back from once passed. This seems to indicate a pretty linear level architecture.

[abeg]

Right now I think I want the map, it's difficult to say without playing the actual game and seeing if it feels needed.

Manual saves... I always played on Pro, so I don't much care about saves. I don't like the sound of 'checkpoint' though. If it autosaves at certain spots, that's fine. Checkpoints, to me, indicate a spot in the game that you have to reach, and can not turn back from once passed. This seems to indicate a pretty linear level architecture.

Indeed, indeed, and that's our biggest fear isn't it. I wouldn't mind if it could work like in Blood Money. In PRO you had no savings wich was pretty annoying because of the stupid AI that shot you if you looked at a man taking a shower, but other then that, it was a challenge. But to avoid stupid things like that happen the PRO could use a checkpoint system. Or something. I haven't fully thinkign about this yet.

[Liquid-assassin]

To be honest the map does not bother me in the slightest.
You could just get the intel and then you learn from this , but i think the map should be there on the rookie setting
For people new to the game , as if the game is rock hard nobody will want it other than big fans like us.
Also have no map at all on the pro setting.
Save wise is a pet hate for me on any game , i like to save when i like that way i know exactly were i am on a game.
Like Oblivion you can save anywere and any time.
Though Hitman is a completely different game saves should be allowed , or if the game auto saved after you perform
an important step in the game like entering a compound without being seen so you don't have to do it all over
again would also be nice.
I think what ever IO decide will be good and not to everybody's taste , but then you don't want a game exactly
the same as the others making the game fresh and new.

[MrPistolLaw]

After watching them demo several times, I am convinced that the mini map coupled with Instinct is useless at best. I think the devs can finish taking pages out of the new Batman: Arkham City game:

- push button for full detective mode (none of this recharging instinct nonsense)

- a full map for each level (they've maps for every level and building, inside and out!)

- functional weapon selection via the d-pad; large selection of inventory should be accessible, not just 4 weapons. Batman AC has multiple carry weapons that are amazingly easily accessible

- Re the saves, how about both? Give us checkpoints with the ability to save whenever and wherever we want?

[Agent_88]

The map and the manual saves doesn't bother me as much as Instinct and the Regenerating health crap!, just omg !

[Watson]

I've expressed my views on this issue a number of times. As far as I see it at this moment, including a straightforward schematic devoid of any additions (NPC locations, points of interest etc.) would do nothing to distort, confuse or taint my experience of the game. The map never did this. Whilst you can debate the map's legitimacy and speculate whether it's feasible to obtain schematic information for every location, that's irrelevant when you look at the ‘big picture’ of there simply being a map to aid the player when required as an optional tool.

I have formerly suggested a map that spawns according to 47's memory based on where he has been, in view of the fact that features such as Instinct are focused on 47's senses, astuteness and intellect. As for checkpoints, I don't see why a 'checkpoint save' couldn't be substituted with an auto-save, with manual saves also available dependant on difficulty (as in previous titles).

Did the existence of maps, whether they illustrated more or less information (according to difficulty) spoil the past Hitman games? No. Did having the availability of manual saves spoil the past games as well? No. Let's not forget that all of these features were entirely optional and their use was solely reliant on the player's gameplay preferences. We don't know exactly why the map was taken away, but as I have said before, it probably had something to do with the composition of the missions that appear to be sections divided by checkpoints, where a map may have been deemed redundant and therefore not included.

Edited by Watson, 18 October 2011 - 05:25 PM.

[abeg]

I have formerly suggested a map that spawns according to 47's memory based on where he has been

I like that.

[Liquid-assassin]

The map and the manual saves doesn't bother me as much as Instinct and the Regenerating health crap!, just omg !

Yeah i agree that is terrible and will make the game simple to be honest

[sgg847]

It showed too much information, making the game too easy (solution: don't make it show anything else than the level geometry, just like in Codename: 47)

Guys, stop to lie yourselves.

The levels are so linear there's no need for a map

All previous games are also linear.

some of us have a very poor memory or sense of navigation

Accept my condolences

It didn't fit the plot. 47 is on the run, and ICA won't be providing him anything, at least in the beginning when he's on the run.

How do you explain map in the mission requiem?

I have a very poor sense of navigation. I can get lost anywhere. How can I enjoy the game if I can't even find my way out of the library? How can I even play the game if I can't find my room?

Accept my condolences

It would fit the plot. 47 might be on the run, but that doesn't mean he can't prepare. I think 47 is able to find blueprints or at least a basic building map that is usually found on a wall on the first floor of buildings.

You play a game, not him.

They think the checkpoint system works better (you could still include auto-save at checkpoints and manual saves. Everyone's happy.)

From what I have seen in walkthrough checkpoints more better than saves.
HC47 has no saves and this game great. AI becomes blind after the loading a save in H2SA and HC. HBM has the most retarded saving system.

[Cold Shadow]

I am recently playing Dark souls and to my knowledge, it doesn't have a detailed map. AND IT IS NOT LINEAR 1 BIT. It's free and you can go and explore any area you want and you have to choose your moves wisely. That said, I NEVER GOT LOST IN IT SO FAR. Why? Because the locations are pretty diverse that a map is not needed. Just a general study of the area by looking and observing at a distance and you will be familiar enough with the area.

Why can't we adopt this into Hitman? The map, even in its simplest form, destroyed the observation part. And observing the area, is suppose to be a strong part of the game.

you may say that with no map what so ever we will aimlessly wonder. Again? Why would you? Just observe and you will never wonder aimlessly. That + the graphical advances that the ps3 has over the ps2 will make it easier for us because we will have a game with far more textures, landmarks (or what ever distinguishes the levels) and the general area wouldn't be repetitive, thus making it easier for us to observe and remember. Now with all that observing, add the cover system to it, which is a new addition and you won't get caught while observing if you play it smart.

Now who needs a map.

Some people just want to be experts in a game from day 1 without any patience and in a game like Hitman, patience and timing are the key to a succesfull Silent Assassin run.

[Choronzon]

I am recently playing Dark souls and.... Because the locations are pretty diverse that a map is not needed. Just a general study of the area by looking and observing at a distance and you will be familiar enough with the area.

Landmarks might help a player form an idea of the location, yes. But not everybody is blessed with a great navigational sense. People who don't have a great navigational sense actually appreciate a bare bones map, it's a useful tool. I, like Black Glasses, am not that great with directions, in general, therefor a map is useful for people like us. You might not need or use it regularly, but we do. Should the map therefore be (justifiably, in your eyes) dropped? Of course not! Like Instinct, if you don't use it - great. Just remember that there are people who do use these tools.

Everybody's always arguing for more options for the player to personalize his/her gaming experience, this is one such case. Making the map optional would solve everybody's problems and frustrations.

The map, even in its simplest form, destroyed the observation part. And observing the area, is suppose to be a strong part of the game.

How does a Codename 47/professional difficulty styled map destroy observation? That sort of bare bones map only shows walls, windows, doors, stairs, etc - nowhere do they indicate NPCs (location, movement), VIPs, Points-Of-Interest or Agency Dropboxes. Just a lay-out of the location doesn't destroy anything, it's still up to the player to discover the weak points, the escape routes, the possible ambushes, etc.

I'll agree that the current map (on the lower/lowest difficulties) does destroy the observation part, but this is only true on those difficulties. Once you chose a higher/highest difficulty, the map becomes less "magic" and more of a navigational tool, as it does not indicate NPCs, etc. That you know where everything and everybody is in irrelevant and has nothing to do with the map itself, in this case. These things were discovered upon multiple playthroughs and thus are discoveries and observations made over long period of time. With hindsight every element of the past Hitman games could be talked down and taken out. Should everything that falls under this category therefore be excised? I dearly hope not. Realism, while greatly appreciated, should never hinder an enjoyable game experience/session.

you may say that with no map what so ever we will aimlessly wonder. Again? Why would you? Just observe and you will never wonder aimlessly.

Not everybody is blessed with a great navigational sense. You might not realize, but not everybody's instantly able to recreate directions in their mind or memorize locations by going past them once. Some people actually like and actively use maps as a navigational tool. I'm merely talking about the map itself here, so please don't bring the whole "magic" and "overpowering" argument up again. That's not what I'm talking about here.

the graphical advances that the ps3 has over the ps2 will make it easier for us because we will have a game with far more textures, landmarks (or what ever distinguishes the levels) and the general area wouldn't be repetitive, thus making it easier for us to observe and remember. Now with all that observing, add the cover system to it, which is a new addition and you won't get caught while observing if you play it smart.

Watson already countered this argument before. If there's a big pixelated beach ball in a room, people will remember it. Whether it was drawn it Wolfenstein 3d polygons or the latest slick HD rendering engine is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that its just still a ball in a room. Yes, the ball might look more realistic and detailed, but its still a beach ball in a room. Graphics make the experience of it nicer, but they don't change the experience itself.

Now who needs a map.

People who don't have a great navigational sense by themselves. Those actually appreciate the option of having a map available (in some form).

As far as the merits of manual saves goes, I'm with Black Glasses as well. He has rather eloquently put them into words. I have nothing to add to his existing arguments in favor/defense of this. This also boils down to the earlier mentioned player options again. Make manual saves optional, that solves everybody's problems, hangups and frustrations.

Also, stop writing arguments in ALL CAPS. There's plenty of other ways to emphasize your words, such as bold, italics or underline.

Edited by Choronzon, 19 October 2011 - 06:56 AM.

[Mr.Reaper]

wow alot of opinions here, I hope they read mine ..

The Sattlelight Map is a must have feature of hitman and everything that goes with it, it makes sense for it not to be in the first level but it should be in all the proper missions.

I dont really care about saving and have never used it in any of the hitman games, I think it makes things to easy. the checkpoints concept is ridiculous, i've been in blind faith that the levels will be true to hitmans style as in not being linear, and I have not made any wild assumptions from the first level, the following levels should be more proper and multi-pathed or I will kill myself. Its Hitman not James Bond

[sgg847]

There is good idea to increase profit. Special edition with the paper maps and a compass.

the graphical advances that the ps3 has over the ps2

Stop to compare the graphics of the consoles. PS3 was released in 2006.