401 replies to this topic

[HitPro]

I completely agree with the topic subject. I have enough to rant over the innumerable mistakes undergone in the design of absolution but as any Hitman fan I am just (for time being) ignoring the negatives unless the style of stealth and brains that make this series one of its own is left untouched. The Developers worry about accommodating new players and trying to make the lazy bones more happy catering every new feature in absolution. The worst among them is checkpoints feature.
Its like one way road to the target and missions are definitely NOT DONE in a linear environment when playing like Hitman levels. You can't enjoy the atmosphere and suspense of the levels.
With each and every info and previews every time they release which doesn't sounds good at all!.

Its better to release these new features and stealth mechanics with a new name and new title rather ditching old fans. I still don't get why they think new players will be turned off by the old formula. If they do than IO better try making expansions for already perfect series when it first started and it has done well since then and keep the need to f*ck it up for the new players with loads of non-sense formula to try and win every mission with no feel of "Silent Assassin".

Edited by HitPro, 11 January 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[Habit]

Watson your checkpoint style would only work for mission where you have to get from point A to point B. How would that work in a sandbox environment where you constantly revisiting parts of the level you previous been too, where you all over the map in no set direction ?

a checkpoint can happen more than once. as you go from one level to another. this way if killed you resart on that last floor. not saying it'll be that way but it could.

The Orphanage showed two ways of tackling the mission yes, but it didn't look like there was much variety in between the two options. You just either kill the guards or don't. Curtians Down as stated before had various ways of pulling off that mission. These just seemed like there are two options, the stealth or the run and gun.

Like Amendment XXV? besides isn't that the dehlema in all hitman games. either kill the guards or don't the orphanage mission doesn't show who the target is, if there even is one (could be a rescue) but if there is a target i'm sure there is multiple ways to take out that target.

Look theres no point trying to convince me, IO could shut all us angry fans up by just showing one sandbox level and explaining how these checkpoints work. I mean wouldn't they rather have us on board then leave us to rant about them everywhere ? I mean they have yet to even show a mission about Agent 47 being an actual fucking Hitman, you got him running away and saving some girl. Is it not possible to show these new features mixed in with classic mission type?

Have you on board no. and can I mention Father vitorio the entire reason SA exists as a game, Mei ling in SA, and Contracts, and the girl in meat king party who you are sent to save but is already dead. Agents Smith who appears in every game including your beloved BM in Flatline. all charcters 47 has the coise to save and in flateline, and in contractsa it's even the mission objective to save smith? so saving Victoria in Absolution follws the format to a T.

Lets just hope there next PR is for the fans, a large sandbox mission with a few contracts showing off how these checkpoint mechanics work. IO at the moment is a far from quality developer, there recent track record is terrible so they have to understand the skepticism. Heck even Rockstar when they saw worried Max Payne fans put some effort into reassure us and with the flawless track record they didn't even need to.

I think that IO is listening to the fans. Tore has quoted things from previous games that were buggy or a problem that fans complained about and he felt needed to be fixed. Tore isn't just the Director but he's a fan and has worked on and played every hitman game. so he knows his shit as good if not better then you or I.

I am looking for a successor to Blood Money yes, where what made it great is kept and what was bad is fixed with few new features thrown in. I do not want another fucking Splinter Cell Conviction where they change the great core mechanics because a few 12 year old ADHD casual gamers were not patient or smart enough to play the old ones.

You're looking for a BM copy, you haven't said one thing that you think should be fixed or improved. And sorry but in 2012 games are different, so much more can be done with games and it behooves the company's to make a game to it's full potential.

[sgg847]

Now I read that all this change is to accommodate the new players. They don't need to fucking hold there hand with all this slow-mo painting target bullshit (clearly ripped from Conviction...), they don't need instinct.

"Tag and Shoot" is most of all tag than shoot. Instinct is button on your gamepad but you, probably, can't understand it.

... Codename 47 (A masterpiece).

I want to see some Death at the Mississippi, The Murder of crows ect

I have expected other two missions.

p.s. hitman is most of all action game than stealth.

[HitPro]

p.s. hitman is most of all action game than stealth.

WHAT?

yea please note what you state?
Its stealth game first. Action is just a catchphrase and nothing more!.

[Cold Shadow]

So many idiotic mistakes about what Hitman is. HITMAN IS NOT A STEALTH GAME. Get it on your head.
Hitman is about getting the job done, no rules and no questions asked. You do as you want and you proceed how you want. There's are no rules holding you back.

Yes, stealth is presented in a better way because 47 is the silent assassin. But that alone doesn't make hitman a stealth game,although I agree that based on 47's character, stealth is the way to go.

Anyway, as for Absolution.

Checkpoints. If you think that they will make it linear, then you need to stop playing games. WHY? Because you're short sighted. (not referring to anyone in particular. Why? Because you're just rushing into conclusion without thinking ahead. Checkpoints can make it linear, but there are multiple ways to make it non linear. Example:

There will be set checkpoint over the level, spread apart. Now, when you enter the 2nd checkpoint for example, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU CAN'T GO BACK TO THE FIRST. If you go back to the first checkpoint, you will re activate he checkpoint. Does this make it linear? NO. It's just 1 example how to make it non linear if you would take the time and think.

Levels compared to other games. These are all assumptions up to this point. IO confirmed multiple times that multiple playthroughs are possible and multiple different routes and kills are confirmed to return, in some missions better than others. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER HITMAN GAME.
We haven't seen an entire level yet, apart from Run for your life, which IO already confirmed that it has other routes to take. So what's the problem?
You think that the missions won't have multiple ways to kill the target?
Well that's an assumption that you made up (to the OP).

[Johnny Drama]

Please stop. Hitman IS a stealth game. Because you can choose to play the action way does not mean that it's suddently all action oriented. The fact that you get rewarded in this game playing stealth (Silent Assassin) makes it clear which way they see a Hitman best. If you like action, then sure, you go the action route, but don't say it's not a stealth game.

[Cold Shadow]

^You don't deserve to play Hitman if you don't know the purpose of it. Read my post. Where have I said that it's action oriented? I said that it's about choice. Although stealth is better presented because of 47's character and the whole game design. But that alone does not make it a stealth game. It's a free game where silent assassin is the aim. But this aim can be ignored, otherwise, the game wouldn't have other rating systems. YOU BASICALLY AGREED WITH ME. But still, the silent assassin alone doesn't make it a stealth game. It is a free game where you kill for money with no rules holding you back. Though I agree that stealth is the way to go.

[Johnny Drama]

That still makes it a stealth game. Let make both parts happy: it's a stealth game and a action game. When the game is designed to be played stealthy, then it's fair to call it a stealth game also. If you just want action from it, then you go play the action way. To say it's not a stealthy game is wrong, it's just what you as a player makes it. Stealth/action game is the right term here.

[HitPro]

So many idiotic mistakes about what Hitman is. HITMAN IS NOT A STEALTH GAME. Get it on your head.

Not again, Give it a quick read, Warning, if it turns into a bit of a tiff, I won't continue bitching.

Let me state For me its Former (stealth) BUT a stealth action nevertheless. I don't know how to stress on this fact but in video game terms, a stealth game, or simply Stealth, is that it rewards the player for using typically those actions that help undetection throughout the job!

I'll repeat that last word again,

UNDETECTION! ... Are you reading - UNdetection??


If yes, which core gameplay are you regarding as action?? though, Hitman game allows to choose between a stealthy approach or direct approach.

One of the things I am glad that you did not screw up asking who is an absolute idiot running this project Called Absolution even after sidelining - David Bateson and Jesper Kyd.

Excluding "Professional Difficulty" for a Checkpoint. I am not against checkpoint system but this is not RPG but a stealth-action game where the prime decision regarding where and when to Save depends on the player. I should be given that freedom even if, checkpoints are a part. I think its long gone when Hitman had no rules and no questions asked before you started a mission, since the game is in full control of me now.

Still, you forgot to read just like many other idiotic mistakes to the fact I have always been ignoring these complains UNLESS the game is released or UNTILL the style is the same.

I am not judging the game but atleast Let me just discuss about what I am curious?

Good luck brotha.

[Cold Shadow]

Who ever thumbs down my post is STUPID. Actually he defines the word.
A true stealth game is a game where stealth will be your only option and if you get caught, the game will re load you into your last checkpoint saying "failed". Hitman doesn't work like that.

I never disagreed that Hitman is not a stealth game. But it is not a 100% stealth game like everyone is saying. NO. Hitman is about getting the job done. It is a free game where stealth is the way to go, but you also have other routes to take (otherwise the game wouldn't have different mission rating systems). But that alone doesn't make it a stealth game. It goes into the category of stealth, yes, but you can't classify it as a 100% stealth game either.

Edited by Cold Shadow, 12 January 2012 - 02:31 AM.

[Johnny Drama]

Hitman is a 100% stealth game if you wants it to be! That's the point!

Just because it does not say 'FAILED' and starts over if you get caught is not a reason. That's just what exactly makes the Hitman games good; you maybe get caught doing your mission, but then you have the freedom to take this witness out.

[Cold Shadow]

^Exactly my point. Stealth is an option, which is presented as the way to go. But Hitman alone is based on choices to take while on the job. I never said that stealth is not the way to go. It is the way to go in Hitman, but it's still not a 100% stealth game. Not because stealth is not good enough. NO. But because the game offers other alternatives. Now, I am not saying that Hitman is not stealth based. It is to a point. But choices and replayability are what Hitman is known for. The stealth side is great. But my point is that you can't call Hitman a 100% stealth game when the game is based around choices where silent assassin is the aim that can be ignored.

Hitman is more of a stealth action game where the stealth side of it outclasses the action side of it.

Edited by Cold Shadow, 12 January 2012 - 02:47 AM.

[HitPro]

Man that's what I am saying!.. I at-least always said Stealth-Action repeatedly and not 100% stealth.

[Cold Shadow]

^My long post wasn't aimed at you. Just to be clear. It was mostly debating the OP - opening post.

Edited by Cold Shadow, 12 January 2012 - 03:07 AM.

[HitPro]

^My long post wasn't aimed at you. Just to be clear. It was mostly debating the OP - opening post.

I got that, in the context of a discussion, I meant it for you were arguing with me.

[JaRDoS]

One mission Jardos in the original game where you had to kill everyone, thats like saying the training mission of Blood Money shows how linear that game is, all the other missions where about killing x,y,z whoever died in between was up to you.

Nonsense, the original game had three missions I can think of off the top of my head that required mass homicide, Contracts is the only game in the series where the finale does not require mass homicide (but they provide a minigun in case you want to go mass homicide). Codename 47 also had multiple levels which were scarce of civilians, thus making the simplest method to kill every fucker you came across (since you only got penalised for non-hostile kills).

Blood Money provides you with customizable weapons that have no practical stealth applications, but are awesome for mass murder. Mass murder is fun, and the developers know it. They want people to know it'll be available and they won't just have to sit around with thumbs up their asses waiting for a dude to drink his poison tea.

Watson, what more evidence do I need for structured missions then checkpoints. Do you know what a checkpoint is ? Its when you reach a certain part of a level, it saves for you so you can load up from there saving time from redoing the mission from the start. Checkpoints only work in linear games, as the level is divided into areas, once you reach an area it saves for you. Hitman Blood Money (the best of them all) would have not worked with a checkpoint system at all. If you are forced into each area at a time, that is linear gameplay not freeform that Hitman series is known for.

What I mean by traditional approach is not traditional Hitman approach, but standard third person where you reach part a of the mission chechpointm reach part b checkpoint. Thats not Hitman, all the best Hitman mission are just one big level where your left to deal with the contracts your own way.

Um, checkpoints used to be called levels. Then we got levels that were big and we had saves, now we're promised levels that are fucking huge and we have checkpoints so we don't have to keep stopping and going "okay, I better save now..." every five minutes.

And thank Christ because I'm playing Deus Ex Human Revolution right now and I swear that game is best played by binding Quicksave to your left mouse button and Quickload to your right.

Jardos yes it starts and ends in the same place but the variety in the journey on how you get to these places is what Hitman is about. Look at those previews, it looks like Splinter Cell, not Hitman.

Did you ever notice something about Splinter Cell games? There's no people in them. There's the guards you can take down, people you can interrogate and that's it. Their are no crowds of civilians in any noteworthy area because the strain of running the stealth elements and the civilian AIs would have made Sam Fisher shit his pants.

Now we have systems that can do both, so just like Conviction had a few pain in the ass civilins who don't do much, Hitman can now have some fancy shadow effects that are not laughable and 47 can now pose around the scenery rather than crouch retardedly a foot away from what he's hiding from. These aspects would have greatly improved Blood Money - particularly parts like sneaking around in the back rooms and upper floors of bars in Mardi Gras, climbing around in the mountain retreat 'cause you're using staff only areas to avoid crowds, etc.

This is what "next generation" actually means. Unless your game has the words "Zelda" or "Mario" in the title.

As I said before there is nothing I want more then to be horribly wrong, but all I have seen so far is a third person shooter that plays nothing like the original Hitman games. I would rather look like a twat and have my dreams of New Hitman better then Blood Money then be right and have some shoddy generic third person shooter.

EDIT: If there are the big sandbox contract levels that the series is famous for then why have they not been shown, I mean when was Hitman ever praised for its linear levels ? When was Hitman ever praised for its levels where every NPC was an enemy ?

That would probably be because they don't want to show off the sandboxy levels because:
- it would take longer
- it would ruin the impact when the player first sees it for themselves
- those levels take longer to build, refine, debug and add finishing touches to
- those levels are not ones which keep the story ambiguous
- because they want to leave those levels open to as much creative freedom while working as possible, rather than get fanboys crying "In the demo this worked, but in the main game this isn't there, WHY!?"

In short, you haven't seen the whole game or much of it because they actually want you to... y'know, buy the game. Something about books, covers and the fact that all the Hitman game trailers look nothing like the games do go here.

[Sbriggs]

I agree with the OP, but the two trailers have confused what I expect the game to be.

After watching the first trailer I thought the first part (in the Arkham City Library) was like any other 3rd person shooter. Hide behind a few luckily placed chest high objects, kill a few people, hide again and sneak through. Even the instinct system was a bit stupid (where you could see where the people were going to walk), part of the fun was trying to second guess where people would walk too. The second part, where you sneaked past the helicopter, mingled through the building (maybe taking the odd person out) and sneaked past the cops was the Hitman I loved to play. I could even imagine the nerves when walking past the helicopter, thinking, don't shoot!

The second trailer has made me feel that it's a Splinter Cell Conviction remake but with outfit customisation thrown in. The whole Hitman game used to be about a 47 placed in any normal part of the world on any normal day, mixing with innocent people and a few guards and the main hit. You had to mingle with all and slip through, kill the target and slip out. Maybe even make sure no evidence is left. This game seems to be, you're in one location (judging by the trailers, always in a building), and all NPCs are guards and it's chaos from the start.

Also I think I read on this thread the question why does he kill Diana. I believe the main villain kills her and Agent 47 was on his way to save her, but failed, and there's the story. Which explains the shot of him looking at the empty bed and the whole coin in her hand thing.

I'm hopefully looking at some more info coming soon which maybe shows the hospital level is maybe a training level and what stealth means in the game.

[Symbiote]

Also I think I read on this thread the question why does he kill Diana. I believe the main villain kills her and Agent 47 was on his way to save her, but failed, and there's the story. Which explains the shot of him looking at the empty bed and the whole coin in her hand thing.

It has been confirmed by Nick (IO's community/PR guy) and some of the developers in these interviews that 47 is the one who kills her.

[sgg847]

It has been confirmed by Nick (IO's community/PR guy) .... that 47 is the one who kills her.

Where?

[Watson]

Watson your checkpoint style would only work for mission where you have to get from point A to point B.

But, missions are about going from A to B. You start, complete the objective/s and leave via the exit. This isn't open world.

How would that work in a sandbox environment where you constantly revisiting parts of the level you previous been too, where you all over the map in no set direction ?

Checkpoints can allow you to do that too. Deux Ex is an example, passing a checkpoint does not mean that you're locked in and obligated to just move forward, you're free to retrace your steps and explore as much as you want to.

The Orphanage showed two ways of tackling the mission yes, but it didn't look like there was much variety in between the two options.

Just because they showed two possible ways of completing that mission does not mean those are the only ones. What do you want, a 10-way playthrough of the same level?

I mean they have yet to even show a mission about Agent 47 being an actual fucking Hitman, you got him running away and saving some girl. Is it not possible to show these new features mixed in with classic mission type?

Yes it's possible, but I have a feeling we'll see the Silent Assassin playthrough of the Rosewood Orphanage mission in due time. We've already received one level gratis (many months before this game's released), we'll probably see some, if not all of the new demo as well - and you want more... With Blood Money all we got were some action trailers and a linear demo where you almost had to kill everyone in it.

IO at the moment is a far from quality developer, there recent track record is terrible so they have to understand the skepticism. Heck even Rockstar when they saw worried Max Payne fans put some effort into reassure us and with the flawless track record they didn't even need to.

IOI have a pretty successful track record with Hitman, they're good at making these games and they probably know it. They're not in business to make a "shitty" Hitman game.

I am looking for a successor to Blood Money yes, where what made it great is kept and what was bad is fixed with few new features thrown in.

And I would like a successor to all the Hitman games, not just Blood Money, which was far from perfection. Absolution shows promise in many areas, and while I'm not so enthusiastic about some of the changes, I've come to learn that there are visible improvements being made here. They have clearly invested in creating a thrilling story, quality technology, improved mechanics, an intelligent disguise system and the ability for this game to be just as good in action as it is stealth. Of course, I have always enjoyed stealth in Hitman, but action was always lacking, particularly if you wanted to have it after a Silent Assassin playthrough.

I do not want another fucking Splinter Cell Conviction where they change the great core mechanics

What core mechanics have been changed? I only see improvements in 47's physical movements, disguise abilities and close combat. We'll have plenty of contract hits to complete, we'll have a variety of sandbox and smaller levels, all our favourite weapons appear to have returned (including the syringe), add to that Absolution will have a story that has certainly got me interested.

But, please IOI, no more spoilers!

Edited by Watson, 12 January 2012 - 05:31 AM.