401 replies to this topic

[The Main Event]

I'm OK with Instinct and everything else as it does seem to drive the evolution of Hitman games. Although the cramped feel of the two demo missions left me a bit worried. What I saw was tight corridors and chest high cover points all over the place. It's probably too early to make any assumptions on the full game based on the demos but it just didn't feel very Hitman to me.

Ok. As I said, your mind is set to make Absolution fail and no matter what, you will still say that it failed. And btw, voice actors being replaced is not the end of the world. It won;t break the game alone. Yes they played a big part but the voice alone won't make or break a character in a game like Hitman.

That's completely subjective, maybe it doesn't break the game for you but it almost does for me. It's not the end of the world, but it's a huuuge point of concern for me and that will never change.

[Cold Shadow]

^ So voice acting is more important than GAMEPLAY AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT?
I mean 47 barely spoke and I am 100% sure that none of the fans liked 47 because of his voice in the first place. We liked him because of his personality, his actions that speak louder than his words and his character.

Don't get me wrong, voice acting is very important here. I am only commenting on the voice actors. For me, as long as they do it well, I don't really care who's doing the voice tbh because afterall, 47 barely speaks.

I would appreciate Bateson because he was great, but let's give the new guy a chance.

[Choronzon]

Not to needlessly add fuel to the fire here, but I kinda agree with the OP. So far, we've mostly been privy to the "brutal action" part of Absolution. Is it really that unreasonable to demand to see some more stealth, either in gameplay or trailer material, in the promo material of a supposed stealth/action game? The Absolution trailers have not shown that much in that regard. Sure, the PR has promised many a thing in that department, but it's just that PR talk. Evidence would kill all speculations/frustration in one swift blow.

It's not like IO haven't done such a thing before. Let's take a look at some Hitman 2 Silent Assassin trailers to establish a good basis of comparison.

H2: Silent Assassin (the action/stealth trailer)

description: shows stealth and action approach in equal amounts. More "mainstream" in a sense, lots of gunfire, etc. It's flashy and fast-moving - but it not hides the game's true nature: social stealth.

It also indicates what is (generally) the preferred approach: "move stealthily", "eliminate silently", "from a distance" / "or close up", "cover your tracks", "move in disguise". And mentions the basis of the very franchise: "stay hidden", "stay professional". As I said it's flashy, full of action and gunfire - but emphasizes what is important: stealth above gunpower.

H2: Silent Assassin (cinematic trailer)

description: focuses more on the story part of the game. Includes bouts of thrilling action, but still emphasizes the stealth nature of the game. Displays the "choice" and "freedom" which Hitman is famous for.

Edited by Choronzon, 13 January 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Choronzon]

Apparently, one can only post a certain amount of media links in one post, so excuse this direct reply to my above post.

H2 Silent Assassin (E3 trailer)

description: the most prestigious of the three, for obvious reasons. More cinematic, it has tons of action (especially in the second half) but still emphasizes the importance/preference of stealth over gunplay (first half of the trailer).

This just to establish the fact that there's no harm done if IO would release a more "stealth" oriented trailer (this can include bouts of action, to hook in the mainstream audience they so desperately crave for). Sure, there's some stealth already in the trailer material for Absolution, but it's of the "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" nature. I'm all for going in new directions and implementing improvements, but what's wrong in acknowledging the core nature of this franchise? That's stealth, social or otherwise. All the rest is up to the player, really. It's just like the OP, I'm not feeling it (yet). The trailers so far look like those of a cheapie action b-movie, especially the less accomplished ones.

I am still, by the way, holding up some slim hope for Absolution to win me over.

Edited by Choronzon, 13 January 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Mr. ME]

@Chronozon, to be honest, I think that IOI talked there minds out of stealth in the many recent previews, they just upped up the shooting or action, to make it seem natural if one so choses that path, the stealth is still there, fibre wire, syringe, crouching...etc. Now that being said, all of the steath theyve shown is crouching behind counters. Weve never really explored how the disguise system works in absolution through gameplay vids.

What I must stress is that none of these previews ever talked a little deeply about the checkpoint system, or the linearity (or sandboxity of the game).
If we find out that this game is not linear in anyway shape or form (well not that much, but not more then 35% of it) it might just be the perfect Hitman game, well, if it werent for the removal of Bateson.

[Choronzon]

to be honest, I think that IOI talked there minds out of stealth in the many recent previews, they just upped up the shooting or action, to make it seem natural if one so choses that path, the stealth is still there, fibre wire, syringe, crouching...etc. Now that being said, all of the steath theyve shown is crouching behind counters. Weve never really explored how the disguise system works in absolution through gameplay vids.

My point exactly. Absolution looks up to today's standards (without really excelling at any point), but where's the stealth element of this supposed stealth/action title? I wouldn't be all surprised if new folks come into this expecting a run-and-gun action fest like Gears Of War, SC: Conviction or Uncharted. The promo material really hasn't went out of its way to dispel that notion, nor has it truly acknowledged that stealth is an important part of the gameplay. A trailer can be cinematic and involving including stealth. See my H2 examples of above. Action is just one part of the possible gameplay, why then are IO (so far) apparently conveniently ignoring the (social) stealth part of this franchise? Isn't that what made the old Hitman titles unique and famous in their own right? That's what worrying me. Hitman never was a corridor shooter, Absolution (chest-high objects and all) seems to indicate otherwise... Just saying.

Edited by Choronzon, 13 January 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Mr. ME]

My point exactly. Absolution looks up to today's standards (without really excelling at any point), but where's the stealth element of this supposed stealth/action title? I wouldn't be all surprised if new folks come into this expecting a run-and-gun action fest like Gears Of War, SC: Conviction or Uncharted. The promo material really hasn't went out of its way to dispel that notion, nor has it truly acknowledged that stealth is an important part of the gameplay. A trailer can be cinematic and involving including stealth. See my H2 examples of above). Action is just one part of the possible gameplay, why then are IO (so far) apparently conveniently ignoring the (social) stealth part of this franchise? Isn't that what made the old Hitman titles unique and famous in their own right? That's what worrying me. Hitman never was a corridor shooter, Absolution (chest-high objects and all) seems to indicate otherwise... Just saying.

What is worse, is that when most of us are playing purist mode, we cannot use the social stealth part of the instinct mode, since its turned off. Which in that case I dont know if this renders the use of disguise on purist mode useless or not. I sure do not want to spend all day doing crouching crouching and more crouching, it would feel like the stealth of Deus Ex, which was BORING.
But then again, IOI did talk about the enhancement of exploration, and how you can use choices to alter the situation of the AI, so maybe that would give us some more optimism.
We still have two core concerns in absolution:
1. Linearity/Checkpoints.
2. Knowing more about the disguise.

[Mr. ME]

Double post

Edited by Mr. ME, 13 January 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Vindex]

Where do those trailers "emphasizes stealth" exactly? The only "stealth" things are some clueless fiber wire killings and few frames of 47 sneakings around. That doesn't mean nothing, especially considering that the remaining 3/4 of the videos are exclusively made of tons of plain retarded shootouts.

With that forma mentis, I could say that the VGA awards trailer "emphasizes stealth" because 47 takes down a guy wit the fiber wire at the beginning...

[Choronzon]

Where do those trailers "emphasizes stealth" exactly? The only "stealth" things are some clueless fiber wire killings and few frames of 47 sneakings around. That doesn't mean nothing, especially considering that the remaining 3/4 of the videos are exclusively made of tons of plain retarded shootouts.

I guess it's open to personal interpretation. For me, it is about the context in which these fibrewirings and sneaking is presented. It's surrounded by scenes of bloody rampages and shoot outs, which generally are presented as a last resort solution, not the preferred course of action. Maybe I see it different as you, entirely possible. The difference of context is what is most important to me. Eye of the beholder when it comes to it.

With that forma mentis, I could say that the VGA awards trailer "emphasizes stealth" because 47 takes down a guy wit the fiber wire at the beginning...

Couldn't I then also not say that a hitman or a contract assassin equals mass murder and property destruction on a major scale going by Absolution's promo so far? The Absolution (E3, I think) trailer shows 47 as a Commando-like killing machine, of action movie like proportions. By that standard a Hitman is a mass murderer, who will kill anybody and everybody - not just the designated target and little else.

Edited by Choronzon, 13 January 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[sgg847]

Stealth, stealth, stealth .... where is action?

[Mr. ME]

Stealth, stealth, stealth .... where is action?

You can play absolution anyway you like, be it stealth, action, or a bit of both.
You might be happy to find out that IOI improved the Action in H:A into feeling natural.
Or you can just watch almost all H:A vids, they all contain action.


@Topic.

The thing that made Hitman such a success is disguises, which made different then most stealth games which are all about crouching and climbing etc....

We need to know more about that. Then of course comes the sandbox nature, which is a major issue.

[Vindex]

What is worse, is that when most of us are playing purist mode, we cannot use the social stealth part of the instinct mode, since its turned off. Which in that case I dont know if this renders the use of disguise on purist mode useless or not.

Lolwat. That's not worse, it's something you should be grateful for. By disabling instinct you do not make the use of disguise "useless" (???), you just deactivate those features that makes your game experience easier.

For example http://goo.gl/2nHRv

47 is going through a corridor, and 2/3 officers are coming towards him. When he's about to stumble upon them, he activates the "blend" feature by using instinct, and he succed in passing unnoticed.

Now, for a long-time Hitman player that's a cheat as much as the wall-hax. In the previous hitman games (except BM maybe) when you were in such a situation the risk of being spotted was 99%, and this forced you to avoid direct contact with foes when disguised, by searching an alternative route or a different way to pass them.

So by disabling instinct you're not losing any "social stealth" part, you're just getting rid of this kind of exploits and playing the game in the classic way. Hope that's clear.

[Cold Shadow]

Ina ll those trailers, 47 just killed, killed and killed. It's no different to Absolution's trailer. Only a handful of real stealth trailers were released. IO have yet to announce Absolution's release date so those few stealth trailers have YET to appear.

The Hitman 2 trailer was taken from various levels and it didn't exactly show stealth. Only the main trailer emphasized on stealth. All the others were just shootouts or at least the massive parts of it were just 47 vs guards in a shooutout.

I believe that the stealth trailer for Absolution will make it;s way when the game has a release date.

[Vindex]

I guess it's open to personal interpretation. For me, it is about the context in which these fibrewirings and sneaking is presented. It's surrounded by scenes of bloody rampages and shoot outs, which generally are presented as a last resort solution, not the preferred course of action. Maybe I see it different as you, entirely possible. The difference of context is what is most important to me. Eye of the beholder when it comes to it.



Couldn't I then also not say that a hitman or a contract assassin equals mass murder and property destruction on a major scale going by Absolution's promo so far? The Absolution (E3, I think) trailer shows 47 as a Commando-like killing machine, of action movie like proportions. By that standard a Hitman is a mass murderer, who will kill anybody and everybody - not just the designated target and little else.

Different point of views maybe, I'm watching some hitman trailers/gameplay trailers/commercials right now and the all taste like classic mainstream advertsing. Some are more "stealthier" than others (e.g. contracts), but the song remains the same.

Also, do not forget that H:A will have tons of level, more than the previous games had. And that we've only seen footage of some "unorthodox" levels, like the library (when he's hunted by the police) and part of the oprhanage (when the building is sourrended by Blake's man).

By making a paragon with contracts, they're like asylum aftermath and hunter and the hunted. And using this 2 levels probably falls between a promotional/advertising logic, because for their shape they result more action-oriented and thus more appropriate if your goal is to show some mainstream cinematic-like action for the newfags...

To make it short, doing criticism or speculations basing our judgements on some glaringly promotional-oriented footage it's not the most smart thing to do.

[Choronzon]

To make it short, doing criticism or speculations basing our judgements on some glaringly promotional-oriented footage it's not the most smart thing to do.

Absolutely true.

Which begs the question: why didn't IO just release a more "traditional" or orthodox level to display their improvements and new features in? That would be hitting two flies in one blow, plus there wouldn't be the severe amount of speculation/frustration we're dealing with right now. It's good PR, definitely, people are talking. But it could have been so much better.

Edited by Choronzon, 13 January 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[Nitro]

My god, I think some of you people may actually literally be wearing blinders. I cannot believe there's still concern over whether there will be stealth in the game. I'm flabergasted.

Read some of the media articles from this week. A playthrough of a mission was shown to journalists where 47 went undetected, took out 2-3 thugs with silent takedowns (dragging and disposing of their bodies) and used a disguise as one of the thugs to get past others.

So far, we've mostly been privy to the "brutal action" part of Absolution. Is it really that unreasonable to demand to see some more stealth, either in gameplay or trailer material, in the promo material of a supposed stealth/action game? The Absolution trailers have not shown that much in that regard. Sure, the PR has promised many a thing in that department, but it's just that PR talk. Evidence would kill all speculations/frustration in one swift blow.

This is exactly what this week's media blast was about. 2 playthroughs of one portion of one mission. Read the articles.

@Chronozon, to be honest, I think that IOI talked there minds out of stealth in the many recent previews, they just upped up the shooting or action, to make it seem natural if one so choses that path, the stealth is still there, fibre wire, syringe, crouching...etc. Now that being said, all of the steath theyve shown is crouching behind counters. Weve never really explored how the disguise system works in absolution through gameplay vids.

What I must stress is that none of these previews ever talked a little deeply about the checkpoint system, or the linearity (or sandboxity of the game).

There was mention of 47 using a thug's disguise during the stealth playthorugh, it just isn't shown in the video footage they released of said playthrough. From one of the interviews (can't remember which one), I gathered that when it comes to disguises, NPC's of the same character-type will begin to see through the disguise if you get close to them, unless 1) you use instinct to do the blend function or 2) you are at a "hide in plain sight" spot (e.g., the donuts if you are a cop, stack of papers when disguised as the thug). I think this makes a whole lot of sense... I never liked in the previous games how effective getting the "guard" disguise was and generally tried to avoid doing so; I thought it was terribly unrealistic that, for example, you could put on a pair of sunglasses and suddenly be able to walk freely through a target's house as one of the 12 FBI agents guarding it, and the other 11 agents wouldn't be like, "Strange, Jimmy had hair and was black 20 minutes ago... but he's still wearing those sunglasses, so it must be Jimmy." So I think the solution that NPC's of same character-type can see through your disguise if you get too close to them is fantastic - and this can be seen of course in the RFYL playthrough, when 47 uses instinct to get past the fellow cops in the hallway and again in the lobby. What I want to know is if NPC's that *aren't* of the same character-type will be able to see through a disguise if you behave suspiciously or otherwise not in character.

What is worse, is that when most of us are playing purist mode, we cannot use the social stealth part of the instinct mode, since its turned off. Which in that case I dont know if this renders the use of disguise on purist mode useless or not. I sure do not want to spend all day doing crouching crouching and more crouching, it would feel like the stealth of Deus Ex, which was BORING.

Actually, from one of the interviews (think it may have been the Gametrailers one?) he specifically states that on purist mode the see-through-walls function of instinct is disabled, but that the disguise "blend" function and the "point and shoot" functions are not disabled. Good news.

Edited by Nitro, 13 January 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Vindex]

Absolutely true.

Which begs the question: why didn't IO just release a more "traditional" or orthodox level to display their improvements and new features in? That would be hitting two flies in one blow, plus there wouldn't be the severe amount of speculation/frustration we're dealing with right now. It's good PR, definitely, people are talking. But it could have been so much better.

Well you should ask that to IOI and not me, I'm saying this not for arrogance but because I simply don't mind about the matter, nor I need some kind of stealth-oriented footage to raise my expectations.

I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate something like that, but I do not consider it unavoidable either. It's an empiric evaluation, considering what happened with the last 2 Hitmans: tons of dumb, action-oriented promo material and nothing saying "ehy don't worry, stealth is still there!" till the demos. Same thing is happening with H:A, and honestly I won't be demoralized before getting my hands on a playable version, like I did with H:C and BM.

Of course there are some aspects that made me turn up my nose at them (bateson gone for example, or some mechanichs like the movement speed while sneaking that imo is way over the top) and there are some that I appreciated (purist mode above all), but these are most game mechanics, or better pre-alpha game mechanics (so even in this case criticism is not totally groundless, but not completely justified either). But I will not make evaluations about gameplay as a whole before a hands-on. And obvious mainstream advertising disguised as gameplay showcasing won't discourage me for sure.


P.S. When looking for H:C trailers and ads on google I stumbled upon this thread on the Eidos forums, it has been posted almost 8 years and it's surprisingly relevant to the matter http://forums.eidosg...ead.php?t=36247

Edited by Retribution, 13 January 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[scourged]

Uhg? What the hell you're talking about? Features that won't be available?

Seriously, you're just making groundless assumptions and arbitrary evalutions on game mechanichs that have still not been fully revealed by the devs, or deliberately saying the false just to bring grist to your mill. Criticism is fine when is constructive, but this is just menstrual whining without any purpose. GTFO.

Watch the interview.

[sgg847]

...bateson gone for example...

Bateson waits his turn...