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Shouldn't we be concerned at this point?


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#61 sgg847

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 08:20 AM

But my problem with them is that the come to call us with names and label us as hater and those weird terms they use these days...why they bother respond to our concerns if they buying the game anyway?...

There are people who disagree with IOI, I also disagree with IOI because they listen to those who disagree with IOI, therefore I also become the part of those who disagree with IOI because IOI should listen to those who disagree with IOI.
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#62 Choronzon

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 08:49 AM

I think the most important thing is that this preview article by David Haughton indicates that there's a good chance (I'm not saying that as a fact, merely a hunch on my part) that Absolution could be the most mainstream, casual, unassuming and vanilla of the Hitman canon. I'm not disagreeing with any of the good points he makes or the questions he raises about this game. I'm all for Absolution taking Hitman into the current century, but it's hard to deny that the way IO/SE have chosen to do this is... questionable. All this journalist is doing is questioning certain creative decisions in relation to past Hitman games. It's not investigative journalism exactly, but it's a lot more substantial and hands-on than the glorified press releases of earlier "previews" by other journalists to date.

I think Haughton deserves a lot more kudos, finally somebody's asking the questions we've been asking ever since Absolution info started to leak in.

Edited by Choronzon, 24 January 2012 - 09:14 AM.

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#63 Nitro

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 09:37 AM

I think the most important thing is that this preview article by David Haughton indicates that there's a good chance (I'm not saying that as a fact, merely a hunch on my part) that Absolution will be the most mainstream, casual, unassuming and vanilla of the Hitman canon. I'm not disagreeing with any of the good points he makes or the questions he raises about this game. I'm all for Absolution taking Hitman into the current century, but it's hard to deny that the way IO/SE have chosen to do this is... questionable. All this journalist is doing is questioning certain creative decisions in relation to past Hitman games. It's not investigative journalism exactly, but it's a lot more substantial and hands-on than the glorified press releases of earlier "previews" by other journalists to date.

I think Haughton deserves a lot more kudos, finally somebody's asking the questions we've been asking ever since Absolution info started to leak in.


He's just absolutely not the first journalist to be making any of the points that he does - they've all been made in previous articles, as well. Especially after E3. That's the thing I don't get about this thread and Agent 88's freak out, there's not a single new thing being said here. He compared it to SC: C. That's new?? Seriously? The only way in which Haughton's article is marginally any different from previous articles and discussions is the dubiously inciteful rhetoric and the degree to which he is willing to conclude that the rest of the levels "must" be equally linear/corridor-ish.

Now, in terms of taking Absolution into the current century without losing its uniqueness - can we agree at this point, even you Choronzon and you Agent 88, that the main concern at this point is level design? I'd like to know what of the other gameplay features presents reason for concern given the things we know at this point, because in my mind - yes - level design is something we can legitimately be worried about; if the entire game is linear, corrdior-filled levels like the two partial-levels that have been shown so far, that isn't what we'd want from a Hitman game. But no other gameplay addition should be a problem for anybody at this point because it's been clearly, inrefutably established that everything else has been additions, not replacements, and *all* of these additions are simply options to add to your arsenal in addition to what already existed in the previous games , which can be freely ignored if you don't want to use them. By this I mean you can play through the entire game not using instinct (purist mode/avoiding the feature), not using any cover or relying on the sneak-in-shadows type of stealth, not utilizing any of the improved action/gunplay mechanics, etc. Play the entire game using only disguises and only the mechanics from Blood Money, if you want... or don't even use the ones from Blood Money, use only the mechanics from Contracts (so no accidents, no human shield). The *only* thing taken away from gameplay perspective (this is not an invitation to bring up the dead horse Bateson issue) is satellite map, and that's a decision that makes a lot of sense to me, as a personal opinion.

So, again, can we agree that if/when it is *conclusively* revealed (since we apparently just aren't going to accept IO's word on it) that there will be level design in the classic Hitman formula, we have all the elements for a good, if not fantastic Hitman game? I'm just trying to narrow down the discussion here because I think it's easy to lose sight of what the *real* concerns are -- some people seem to still be saying "where's the stealth?" which is plainly wrong because everything from disguises to hiding bodies to being able to go through every mission without killing anyone but target (i.e., Silent Assassin ranking) has been conclusively confirmed (and no, not PR smoke-and-mirror talk, I mean conclusively confirmed).
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#64 Cold Shadow

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 09:54 AM

Totally agree with the last paragraph Nitro. Well said. Like you, I also don't get where the real concerns are. I never said that we shouldn't have doubts, having doubts, means that you want the game to succeed, every fan wants that, but the fact is that every time we hear something negative (in this case a retarded preview that was 1 dimensional, since every other article provided us with a better insight on what is actually there, and this article didn't have anything new to begin with), the doubters will use the negative previews to justify their concerns. I am not flaming or anything here, it's just that it does not make sense to forget about the other previews, when they clearly provided us with a better insight and assured us of classic disguises and hiding bodies. I don't get this point at all.

I too have some doubts about LEVEL DESIGN, but I will never assume that the whole game will be like Conviction, simply because from all the info we have till now, you cannot make such judgement on level design.

Edited by Cold Shadow, 24 January 2012 - 09:57 AM.

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#65 Choronzon

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 09:58 AM

Totally agree with the last paragraph Nitro. Well said. Like you, I also don't get where the real concerns are. I never said that we shouldn't have doubts, having doubts, means that you want the game to succeed, every fan wants that, but the fact is that every time we hear something negative (in this case a retarded preview that was 1 dimensional, since every other article provided us with a better insight on what is actually there, and this article didn't have anything new to begin with), the doubters start to appear. I am not flaming or anything here, it's just that it does not make sense to forget about the other previews, when they clearly provided us with a better insight and assured us of classic disguises and hiding bodies. I don't get this point at all.


There's more "doubters" out there, which includes journalists. More people are raising the exact same points are we're regurgitating here. It's not just us us being "trolls". It is more common than you think. Two articles for your perusal.

Edited by Choronzon, 24 January 2012 - 09:59 AM.

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#66 Agent_88

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:08 AM

just not to quote the whole thing


I know what you mean, but if the game is build (level design) to be played like this ex : action, scripted events with encouragement to shoot the bad guys with a linear path that leads to the target? you cant play it like old hitman games no matter how much you try. Even thought it still have the old stealth elements, it looks a lot like splinter cell conviction where your only option is to take cover/wait/ make a take-down/then move, this was shown in the RFYL level and in the demo.

I can forget about the RFYL level, but the devs want to release a demo, it should be built to satisfy both parties (casuals and long time fans) but it seems that this isn't the case, that's why I am "freaking out".

If the reviewers and journalists (some of them are fans of the series as well) are calling it a conviction clone, then there is something to be concerned about even thought we heard it before, because we are talking about the demo here and not a trailer or a promotional level.

Edited by Agent_88, 24 January 2012 - 10:10 AM.

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#67 Cold Shadow

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:10 AM

The thing is that every game will have good and bad previews. I know that there are more doubters put there, but every game has it's doubters before release. The fact is that these doubters are ignoring the other more informative articles to support the negative one, just to raise their point. That's what I don't understand :)

Edited by Cold Shadow, 24 January 2012 - 10:12 AM.

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#68 Mr.Pink.

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:12 AM

What angers me is that those interviewers are just sitting there not asking the developers about the linearity of the game

@ Agent88, so this is where it all ends huh, the game will be linear and it will suck... :mellow:
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#69 Agent_88

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:18 AM

What angers me is that those interviewers are just sitting there not asking the developers about the linearity of the game

@ Agent88, so this is where it all ends huh, the game will be linear and it will suck... :mellow:

I hope not, I want this game to be the best in the series, but the more I hear and see the more I "freak out"

The thing is that every game will have good and bad previews. I know that there are more doubters put there, but every game has it's doubters before release. The fact is that these doubters are ignoring the other more informative articles to support the negative one, just to raise their point. That's what I don't understand :)


The thing is, those positive stuff said is not for us, like better graphics, point and shooting -instinct more action -better engine etc ... stop calling people doubters no one is ignoring anything, if the game turned out to be good as the devs says I will be the first one to go and buy it.

Bad previews doesn't state the same things that is "coincidentally" our fears.

Edited by Agent_88, 24 January 2012 - 10:27 AM.

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#70 Mr.Pink.

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:22 AM

You know what I think, we should just post one whole topic on the BCS Forums all about linearity and sandbox etc....
Because Ive seen that the officials are very, very responsive in those forums to questions.
So maybe then we can get a good idea about the sanboxness of H:A.
What do you think?
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#71 Best for Hire

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:40 AM

I'm starting to accept that this game may be a bomb as well. Although we still aren't sure. But a lot of different things are pointing to it.
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#72 Nitro

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:16 AM

There's more "doubters" out there, which includes journalists. More people are raising the exact same points are we're regurgitating here. It's not just us us being "trolls". It is more common than you think. Two articles for your perusal.

I have read both those articles, and I think they both strongly support my point that the concerns for Absolution's gameplay at this point lay squarely on level design. And sure, level design is a very big point and can make or break this game - but my point is it's time to narrow down the conversation and focus on the real remaining issues. All the *gameplay elements* are there; some (i.e., the new ones) have been shown a bit more extensively than others, and this also makes sense from a marketing perspective. And we know for a fact that the marketing isn't done yet, there's a lot more that they plan to show us which they just have chosen not to yet - which makes sense in order to keep the hype machine rolling and steadily building up, instead of peetering out with nothing new and exciting to show and there still being, say, 8 months to release.

I know what you mean, but if the game is build (level design) to be played like this ex : action, scripted events with encouragement to shoot the bad guys with a linear path that leads to the target? you cant play it like old hitman games no matter how much you try. Even thought it still have the old stealth elements, it looks a lot like splinter cell conviction where your only option is to take cover/wait/ make a take-down/then move, this was shown in the RFYL level and in the demo.

I can forget about the RFYL level, but the devs want to release a demo, it should be built to satisfy both parties (casuals and long time fans) but it seems that this isn't the case, that's why I am "freaking out".

If the reviewers and journalists (some of them are fans of the series as well) are calling it a conviction clone, then there is something to be concerned about even thought we heard it before, because we are talking about the demo here and not a trailer or a promotional level.


Couple things. I think we can lay to rest the concern that it is built around an all-action formula. It's been confirmed that Silent Assassin rankings are in the game and that they can only be achieved by killing nobody except your target. As for the linear path that leads to target - yes that would be the concern I'm talking about when I talk about level design; nobody wants it to be like that and hopefully as they show more of the game we'll see levels that are more open-ended and free in their approach (as has been promised and as certain facts, like the crowd system and hints the devs have dropped about this town "Hope" would seems to imply).

As for the stealth being like splinter cell's: in both the RFYL and Rosewood demonstrations, the devs clearly wanted to show off what we can basically call 3 distinct gameplay styles, those being 1) "sneaky" stealth (ala splinter cell, hiding behind obstructions, remaining unseen, planning movement carefully); 2) "disguise" stealth (most clasically Hitman style); 3) gunplay/action. Their point in showing all 3 is that all 3 can be done in Absolution. Now, the significant point is that all 3 were options and able to be done in all of the previous games, it's just the gameplay mechanics surrounding options 1 and 3 were quite broken so weren't all that fun. All of the marketing so far has been geared towards this idea of saying, "Hey, the Hitman games used to have these options, but they didn't work that well. Now they do." RFYL shows disguise gameplay with the cop outfit. In countless previews surrounding the "stealth" walkthrough of the Rosewood demonstration you can read about how 47 used sneaky stealth to get past many of the enemies (your "splinter cell" comparisons) and then the disguise of one of them to get past several others. Personally, I like the style of splinter cell stealth and think it absolutely belongs in a Hitman game in addition to, and not in place of disguise gameplay, which is precisely what Rosewood emphasizes. Haughton focuses on the resemblance to Splinter Cell not because it's how you *have* to or are *forced* to get through the level, but rather because he thinks the linearity of the design of the level makes for a "get from A-to-B" type of level instead of the Hitman sandboxity (thanks Mr. ME). Point here, again, is that this all rests on level design NOT gameplay elements - if/when it is *confirmed* that there are open-ended, sandbox levels, all claims that it looks only like Splinter Cell fall apart because we know the gameplay elements of disguise stealth exist and can be utilized at any time - we just need to see the open playgrounds we're used to (though the point is well made that not every Hitman level in previous games has been purely open; several have had more linear moments).

Finally, I think you're misunderstanding the use of the word demo here. Haughton is talking about a "demonstration" of the game, not a playable demo that he got his hands on or that will be released to the public. He saw the same demonstration as every other publication saw, and many people came away from that demonstration saying it looked just like classic Hitman, and others came away saying it had classic Hitman elements but also that the level seemed more linear/corridor-ish than Hitman should be. Look at the links Choronzon pasted, esp. the Gamespy one, for examples of this.
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#73 sgg847

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:21 AM

I see IOI's PR machine works at full tilt. But why? why did they disable instinct with HUD together? <_<
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#74 Cold Shadow

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:25 AM

The thing is, those positive stuff said is not for us, like better graphics, point and shooting -instinct more action -better engine etc ... stop calling people doubters no one is ignoring anything, if the game turned out to be good as the devs says I will be the first one to go and buy it.

Bad previews doesn't state the same things that is "coincidentally" our fears.


No, no, no, no, nooo. The good previews didn't only say that.

THE good previews also said that the Orphanage levels was shown in 2 separate playthroughs, 1 with action and 1 with stealth and the one with stealth showed promising disguises in action and hiding bodies similar to previous games. So again, the good ones actually outshone the bad ones in this case simply because the bad ones were 1 sided and didn't comment enough on the OTHER possibilities that the game or mission in this case has to offer.

But I was never 1 to believe in the reviews or previews, I make my own judgements and so far, from what we know, I cannot make that judgement.

Edited by Cold Shadow, 24 January 2012 - 11:38 AM.

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#75 Choronzon

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:39 AM

Am I the only one in doubt or sceptic about this? Apparently not.

IGN: Hitman: Absolution – Agent 47 and Accessibility. Easier and hopefully more fun.

Notable quote: "in Absolution some levels come divided into different sections wherein you can take out the section's guards in whatever manner you'd like -- so long as you keep them from alerting the rest ... so far the levels I've seen seem much more linear, with rooms that let you do it your way rather than stages in their entirety."
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#76 sgg847

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:51 AM

STOP! Is Hitman Blood Money not accessible game?
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#77 Symbiote

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:56 AM

There's nothing in that statement that you or I (or anyone else) haven't already considered. He's drawing a conclusion from the two levels he has seen and hasn't been granted any special access to the rest of the game.

Considering this part of your quote:

so far the levels I've seen seem much more linear, with rooms that let you do it your way rather than stages in their entirety


comes directly after this:

Not that Absolution won't have sandbox style levels. Io hasn't shown anything quite like what I expected as a fan, but I'm told there will be missions that put 47 in an environment with a bunch of objectives and leave you to figure out the way you want to do them.


I don't any reason to treat that article with more importance than any other.

Edited by Symbiote, 24 January 2012 - 12:00 PM.

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#78 Nitro

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:04 PM

Am I the only one in doubt or sceptic about this? Apparently not.

IGN: Hitman: Absolution – Agent 47 and Accessibility. Easier and hopefully more fun.

Notable quote: "in Absolution some levels come divided into different sections wherein you can take out the section's guards in whatever manner you'd like -- so long as you keep them from alerting the rest ... so far the levels I've seen seem much more linear, with rooms that let you do it your way rather than stages in their entirety."


You've made this point already with the previous links, and I've read this article before just as I had already read those ones. And still I posit - all of the articles to which you've linked, I believe, support my point (see portion of my previous post that's responding to you). Do you have a basis for disagreement? And please take the time to understand my point before disagreeing with something I haven't said.
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#79 sgg847

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:13 PM

One simple question. How many people understand the meaning of the word "Hitman"?
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#80 Agent_88

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:20 PM

Finally, I think you're misunderstanding the use of the word demo here. Haughton is talking about a "demonstration" of the game, not a playable demo that he got his hands on or that will be released to the public. He saw the same demonstration as every other publication saw, and many people came away from that demonstration saying it looked just like classic Hitman, and others came away saying it had classic Hitman elements but also that the level seemed more linear/corridor-ish than Hitman should be. Look at the links Choronzon pasted, esp. the Gamespy one, for examples of this.


Thanks for clearing that up, I thought it was a demo for journalist only. I agree with you on the points, so now we need them to release a video showing this.

No, no, no, no, nooo. The good previews didn't only say that.

THE good previews also said that the Orphanage levels was shown in 2 separate playthroughs, 1 with action and 1 with stealth and the one with stealth showed promising disguises in action and hiding bodies similar to previous games. So again, the good ones actually outshone the bad ones in this case simply because the bad ones were 1 sided and didn't comment enough on the OTHER possibilities that the game or mission in this case has to offer.

But I was never 1 to believe in the reviews or previews, I make my own judgements and so far, from what we know, I cannot make that judgement.


I know, those positives are the core of the game, that's why I don't talk about them :) (I knew they were there before they confirmed it), as Nitro said we need to see and open-ended level with old style stealth and not conviction stealth. Then we will make the final judgement.
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