Atheism, Religion and related discussion


#232

Because they are normal people. We don’t need to talk about people who are right by us. It’s not irrelevant as in a bad way, just not important as they don’t endanger us. Don’t fix what’s not broken right.

She spoke about her life as a child in a shelter in Middle East which yes she could lie about but if true, is really inspirational and really explains why she detests Islam. Anyone to suffer consequences like that as a child due to any religion would make you hate it.

Search up Maajid Nawaz too. He was an extremist/radical Islamic where he grew up (funny enough where I live) but he ended up experiencing the results and consequences of Islam. Imprisoned as a political prisoner in Egypt. He woke up to realise that this isn’t fair of a religion and should not be accepted at all and hopes to reform the Quaran to be explicitly peaceful.

Point is, both people have direct backgrounds to it and have revolved around the religion.


#233

@abeg How can you say that? It means a lot to me. How the Islamic groups interpret the Quran has everything to say, look at Isis for example, they go from this:

Salamon Alykum

Yes, Islam Is a religion of peace. Based on my findings: Salm and Salam are the root words for the “Islam” which mean peace and tranquility.[1] The importance of peace and tranquility has been pointed to in the Quran numerous times.[2] For instance, as a verification of Islam being a religion of peace and tranquility, it says:

“یا ایها الذین آمنوا ادخلوا فی السلم کافة و لا تتبعوا خطوات الشیطان انه لکم عدو مبین” “Oh ye who believe! Enter into peace and tranquility altogether and follow not the footsteps of Satan; for he is to you a clear enemy”[3].

From the Quran’s point of view, endless and universal peace and the tranquility of societies are only reachable under the shadow of faith in God, and what connects different societies with all their differences in language, race, wealth and poverty and geographical locations, can only be the belief in God. The belief of Muslims that during the reign of Imam Mahdi (a.s.) there will be universal peace and social justice, is good evidence for such a claim.

The Quran even says: “But if the enemy shows a tendency to peace, do thou (also) show a tendency to peace…”[4]

Of course, all people are born with freedom of choice; some choose to be oppressors and tyrants, causing corruption, therefore it is necessary for a complete religion to have a solution and specific instructions and guidelines for confronting these obstacles that are preventing the guidance of humanity.

Sometimes, oppression and aggression reaches the point that the only thing left to do is self-defense and the usage of force, and that is why Islam has legislated jihad.

In other words, the Quran teaches us to be tough and aggressive with those who don’t follow logic and purposely prevent the prophet’s words from spreading and don’t allow others to be guided because of their enmity towards the truth. The Quran says: “Oh Prophet! Fight hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them…”[5]. “The Muslim nation and Muslims must cause fear and intimidation in the hearts of their enemies, so that they don’t even think about invasion, treachery, and harming the Muslims.”[6]

Of course, Islam’s instructions on military alertness and the protection of the country’s borders[7] (which is another form of Islam’s emphasis on keeping peace and friendship and settlement) and its call on jihad for the sake of Allah (which in reality is one of the most important forms of Islamic worship and is the manifestation of true love to God and human fellowship, and is the opposition of corruption and impurity) completely differ from bloodshed, tyranny, panic, war and violence.

Concerning the importance of jihad, Allah (s.w.t.) says: “And do Jihad in (the way of) Allah, (such) a Jihad as is due to him…” [8]

Since jihad hasn’t been legislated for conquest and the expansion of one’s power, one can easily conclude that jihad is a way of freedom and self-defense and not a way of violence. Therefore, if the objectives of jihad are reachable in a peaceful manner, using force and military methods are forbidden. This is also the reason behind why it is wajib to invite the disbelievers to Islam before going to battle with them if a battle ever wants to begin (this shows that what is important for Islam is for the truth to be heard, not fighting and violence, or else, such a thing wouldn’t be wajib).

Therefore, Allah has made jihad wajib for the defeating of tyrants, the freedom of the oppressed and helpless, and in order to get the grounds ready for those who have been kept in ignorance and unawareness regarding divine teachings and how to prosper in this world and the next, to be able to learn about these things and become familiar with them.[9]

Allamah Tabataba’i says in rejection of Islam being pro-war and after violence, and pertaining to the reality and the reasoning behind jihad: “The whole purpose of jihad is the establishment of Islam and for the word of Allah to rise, therefore jihad is a type of worship that needs to be done with the intention of seeking nearness to Allah (because one of the conditions of something being worship is for it to be done with the intention of seeking nearness to Allah). Jihad hasn’t become wajib in order to take over others’ property and households , it has become wajib for the defending of human rights. Originally, defense has limits, while transgression is breaking the limits. Because of this, the end of the verse says: “لا تعتدوا ان الله لا یحب المعتدین[10]; Do not exceed the limits, for verily Allah does not like the transgressors.”[11]

Therefore, not only isn’t true Islam a religion of transgression, dispute, war and violence, but its instructions and rulings (in which one of them is jihad) have all been legislated for the purpose of helping mankind and for spreading peace and security as a result of godly ruling and the rejection of the ruling of taghut (Evil) and fighting against oppression and injustice. In short, jihad is a fair and holy war for reaching high godly goals.[12]

Thus, maintaining peace with enemies and those thinking of kufr, depends on them keeping the respect of the believers and also depends on the believers not losing their strength and might due to keeping peace with them. When sending Malek-al-Ashtar to Egypt to be in charge and run it, Imam Ali (a.s.) says: “If your enemy invites you to a Peace Treaty that will be agreeable to Allah, then never refuse to accept such an offer because peace will bring rest and comfort to your armies, will relieve you of anxieties and worries, and will bring prosperity and affluence to your people. But even after such treaties be very careful of the enemies and do not place too much confidence in their promises because they often resort to peace treaties to deceive and delude you and take advantage of your negligence, carelessness and trust [13].” [14]

On the other hand, the Quran says among believers, peace is the only way, and Islam calls upon brotherhood and reconciliation by asking the believers to have forgiveness, kindness and affection.[15]

Of course, the Quran scolds peace that is a result of fear, weakness and feebleness in which results in retreating from Islamic values and has warned those with weak faith who choose peace in order not to go to jihad and stay away from the hardships that accompany it in the warzone and says: “فلا تهنوا و تدعوا الی السلم و انتم الاعلون و الله معکم” “Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye are the uppermost: for Allah is with you…” [16]

Therefore, according to what has been said till now, one can easily conclude that true Islam isn’t the main factor behind violence and terror in the world today, and Islam’s logic and teachings will never confirm such a concept. We accept the fact that Islam has been recognized as a complete religion with high godly goals, awakening and guiding Muslim and non-Muslim nations to stand up against oppression and tyranny.[17] It is clear that oppressors and tyrants and those after force, materialistic desires, and treachery especially Istikbar, consider true Islam[18] as the main barrier between them and the accomplishment of their wicked goals and will do anything to poison, abolish and paint a harsh and violent portrait of it and blame it for all the wars, violence and terrorist acts in the world, while they are the true ones who must be blamed, not the Muslims who are merely defending themselves.

Meanwhile, the believers must follow the teachings of the Ahlul-Bayt and show the real face of Islam and strive to neutralize the plots and conspiracies that have been made in order to abolish it, and show the world that true Islam differs from the harsh, violent and illogical terrorist groups out there, who in reality have been established and supported by Istikbar itself.

to this:

  1. Because you are disbelievers

“We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices.”

This is exactly the sort of liberal behaviour frowned upon by the terror group
Orlando gunman Omar Mateen regularly enjoyed gay nightclubs and dating apps
Omar Mateen slaughtered 49 clubbers in Orlando, Florida (Photo: Getty Images)
2 . Because you are liberal

“We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you Christian disbelief and paganism 32 separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power.”

  1. Because some of you are atheist

“In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator.”

  1. For your crimes against Islam

A crucifix
ISIS are no great fans of Christianity (Photo: Rex)
“We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you for your transgressions against our religion.”

  1. For your crimes against Muslims

“We hate you for your crimes against the Muslims; your drones and fighter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth.”

Reading the Koran
The jihadis have developed a twisted interpretation of the Islamic holy book

READ MORE
ISIS terror threat to Channel ferries: Security fears over jihadists boarding UK-bound ship and executing passengers
"We hate you for invading our lands and fight you to repel you and drive you out. As long as there is an inch of territory left for us to reclaim, jihad will continue to be a personal obligation on every single Muslim."

The article concludes that while foreign policy is an issue, the main reason they are hell bent on destruction is because they don’t like the West very much.

It reads: "What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list.

“The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam.”


#234

Are you saying Islam = Naziism and Muslims = Germans? That doesn’t seem like an especially good comparison imo


#235

I dont know how you all feel about it, but this whole book interpreting is like interpreting this thing here:


#236

Nope. RADICAL Islam = Naziism in this comparison.


#237

Hahaha, maybe, i don’t understand a thing about that picture :smiley: all i know if everybody would follow these 5 commandments this world would be a better place.

You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.

The rest of the Bible is a bit hard to understand and can be interpreted in numerous ways.


#238

An old college friend of mine is now an evangelical minister in the USA and he believes the Bible is the exact word of God. In my opinion that caused his worldview to become a lot more insular and, ironically, unforgiving. Rigid, dogged obedience to some words on a page that don’t really evolve with our common consciousness and morality - It’s all very weird to me. Especially when used as a battering ram against the rights of others.


#239

I know many people who… let’s say are not bright enough to have a critical worldview. They need dogmas to get trough their life.
And then there I am, thinking to be better by holding up the works of the enlightenment, but still I am too stupid to completly understand my “holy” book of Kant. Damn it is like philosophers dont want to make it too easy.


#240

Not really, this is not done by regular or normal (probably not the right word, but in lack for better words i’m using regular/normal :smiley:) Muslims, if you gonna post a comment like this maybe do a bit research about the difference between normal/regular Muslims and extreme Islamism Muslims.

ISIS, (also know as Daesh, ISIL or simply Islamic State) is a Jihadist militant group in Iraq and Syria influenced by the Wahhabi movement. It aims to establish a caliphate, or Islamic state in Sunni majority regions of Iraq and Syria. In June 2014, they seized control of Mosul, Fallujah and Tikrit in northern-Iraq in large scale military offensives.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/why-hate-you-isis-reveal-8533563

An ISIS propaganda rag has revealed the top six reasons why they despise the rest of the free world.

  1. Because you are disbelievers

"We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not

2 . Because you are liberal

"We hate you because your secular

  1. Because some of you are atheist

“In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator.”

  1. For your crimes against Islam

“We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you for your transgressions against our religion.”

  1. For your crimes against Muslims

“We hate you for your crimes against the Muslims; your drones and fighter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth.”

  1. For invading our lands
    "We hate you for invading our lands and fight you to repel you and drive you out. As long as there is an inch of territory left for us to reclaim, jihad will continue to be a personal obligation on every single Muslim."

http://www.zwemercenter.com/isis-un-islamic-or-true-islam/

But when the ideologues of ISIS spell out in great detail where in their scriptures, tradition and history, they find the Islamic justification for what they are doing, it’s simply nonsense to go on claiming that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. It would be more accurate to say that ISIS has a lot to do with Islam, but is an extreme expression of one particular kind of Islamism.

But it’s too early to say if this was a terror attack or not:

http://www.euronews.com/2017/04/21/paris-shooter-had-previous-conviction-for-attempted-police-murders

The French have identified the man as a troubled French-born 39-year old who had previously served time for the attempted murder of three police officers in 2001, and who was on the security service’s watch list.


#242

https://www.rand.org/topics/the-islamic-state-terrorist-organization.html

ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria), also known as ISIL (Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant), is a Sunni jihadist group with a particularly violent ideology that calls itself a caliphate and claims religious authority over all Muslims. It was inspired by al Qaida but later publicly expelled from it. RAND terrorism experts have analyzed the group’s financing, management, and organization; its savvy use of social media for recruitment and fundraising; and the instability that spawned the group as a regional problem in the Middle East.


#243

this doesn’t deserve context


#244

This is what you are defending. A quote from the Quran.

Quran (3:56) - “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Quran (3:151) - “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

Quran (9:123) - “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.”


#245

Forbidden:

“And slay not the soul which God has forbidden except for the just cause…” (Koran 17:33)
"…If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind" (Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)
“Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors.” (Koran 2:190)
"…when it is said to them; ‘Make not mischief on the Earth’, they say; ‘We are only peace makers’. Indeed they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive it not" (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:11-12)
The Prophet Mohamad said to his army before going to a fight "Depart in the name of Allah, and by his help. And kill not any old man nor young boy nor child, nor woman, But be good doers for Allah loves those who do good. (Hadeeth)


#246

But @ingrobny, what really is the discussion here. It’s quite obvious, (it can’t get more obvious), that the people who do these horrible things do it for Allah. It doesn’t matter if you, or anyone else thinks they are doing wrong according to the Quran, in their minds they are doing it right, and the motives comes from that. Without that book, or belief, they would have no motive. That goes for all Religion.


#247

lol so if I killed somebody in the name of @abeg it’d be your fault? If you didn’t exist I’d have no motive :stuck_out_tongue:


#248

With or without religion, there will be people who will brainwash others for their own ends.


#249

@spodey. I’m not a Religion, I’m a person, I have not a book that you can read and get motives from to kill someone.


#250

That makes no difference. If you do something because you think X wanted you to, but X didn’t want you to, it’s not X’s fault lol


#251

What the fuck are you even talking about? Go tell all the innocent Iraqis and Syrians who live under threat of torture and execution that ISIS aren’t terrorists. Get outta here with that crap.


#252

Yes i know, but imo we can’t really say religion is bad because we have some groups who takes it to the extreme.