Atheism, Religion and related discussion


#381

I’m tellin ya man, you’re reading into it too much. That wasn’t aimed directly at you.


#382

Of course, punching a nazi is not a good idea, i just read this very intersting from a old neo nazi:

https://extranewsfeed.com/why-punching-nazis-in-the-face-is-a-bad-idea-db6600b15826

But what if we did hug them? What would prove Richard Spencer wrong? What would prove his point? This miserable man’s entire ideology is based on the premise that white people are victims, and as he’s going on about it, someone comes and blasts him in the grill. Can anyone honestly say that that hurt him? It’s exactly what he’s trying to provoke. Now his point is proven to all the other disgruntled white people, and they’ll be falling all over themselves to join up with him, who they see on every possible media outlet now, thanks to the punch-thrower who served Spenser’s purpose. The “alt-right” poster boy would be wise to pay masked someones to punch him on camera if he couldn’t get it for free. That’s how much it helps him.

Now, imagine instead if Ken E. Nwadike Jr, aka the Free Hugs Project guy came up in place of the puncher and gave poor oppressed Richard a great big hug as he was elaborating how savage black people are. What kind of effect would that have had? Think Spencer would have shared that video? A hug would have utterly destroyed every aspect of the violent extremist narrative. Spencer and anyone on Earth who remotely sympathized with him would desperately try to pretend that the hug never happened. Human warmth and compassion has the capability to crush everything the “alt-right” is about… with a hug.

If you don’t approve of neo-Nazis, find the spiritual strength to demonstrate how human beings should treat each other, instead of pouring gas on the fire that their hated depends on to exist.

Indeed, the hug is mightier than the fist.

This is something i will agree with:

If a guy talks like that jerk [Richard Spencer], you should just ignore him. If he hits you, turn around. Don’t even acknowledge him as a person. That’s the type of violence I would call for. Not physical violence. Because, you know, people say symbolic violence can be even worse, but don’t underestimate physical violence. Something happens when you move to physical violence. I’m not saying we should greet everyone, embrace them. Be brutal at a different level. When you encounter a guy like the one who was punched, act in such a way that even hitting him, even slapping him is too much of a recognition. You should treat him or her or whoever as a nonperson, literally.


#383

To quote Warren Ellis:

Nazis do not need a hug. Nazis do not need to be indulged. Their world doesn’t get better until you’ve been removed from it. Your false equivalences mean nothing. Their agenda is always, always, extermination. Nazis need a punch in the face. (And the argument that such assaults allow Nazis to get more attention doesn’t work so well when they were already going live on a national television network, because this is where we are now. This is how normalised their presence in our culture is.)


#384

Well, we just have to agree to disagree on this topic :smiley:.

Just for the record i would never hug or punch a nazi, i would ignore him/her and treat him/her as a non person.


#385

This. Just ignoring the nazi.

I think this is becoming a ridiculous discussion; Whether we should punch or hug a nazi. What’s wrong with ignoring, indeed?


#386

America’s motto until 1941.


#387

12 posts were split from this topic. Let’st try not to derail into slapstick.


#388

We are not saying ignore what nazi’s is doing, but punching them is not the right way to fight nazism/racism, personally run up to a nazi for punching him/her in the face will not change anything, on the contrary, you will most likely increase his/her hate.

Do you really think it was a smart move that the Afro American punched Richard Spencer in the face?
Do you think he got less racist after he was punched in the face? And what about other nazi’s watching that video, do you think they think we have to stop been racists, no, that punch just added fuel to the racist fire.

I can understand why he did it, but go around and punch nazi’s in their faces will not change anything, on the contrary. (< learned a new word today :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:)


#391


#392

Well, I believe that education is the best way to resolve a conflict. I also believe that the world’s most powerful weapon is the freedom of speech. And I specially believe that ideologization is a disease.

That said I would not restrain the freedom of speech to an ideologized man, or punch him for thinking and spreading that.


#402

There a multitude of problems with this, the first is that hugging them would essentially validate their belief that they deserve to be the top priority in other people’s lives, the second is that nationalist groups don’t really care about proof.

As I said above, the modern white nationalist footsoldier rage has it’s roots in a sense of entitlement and (empty) promise of opportunities. They do not think they’re the victims because The League Of Nations is going to make them pay staggering taxes until their grandchildren are old enough to retire, they think they’re the victims because they couldn’t walk into a relatively simple well paying job that would secure them a car, a submissive wife, a house, etc.

Juxtapose their situation with those that they’re blaming for this - and they’re still pretty well off because most of those people also do not have a simple, well paying job that gets them the Nuclear Family kit but they also have to worry about being over policed, accused of hate crimes, murdered without consequence to the perpetrator, etc. They’re still ahead of many groups who don’t advocate for genocide.

When people are so heavily invested in a narrative that they can’t see that they’re actually better off than the people they’re blaming for their problems, they’re heavily enough invested that they don’t really care what “proof” the other side wants. Hence why sites like Infowars continue to get massive traffic when their lead speakers are incapable of keeping a story straight or fact checking any claims.

Firstly the Free Hugs Project does not approach people for hugs, that’s an invasion of their space and likely to be very upsetting to a lot of people. The Free Hugs Project offers people who approach a free hug and lets people who don’t want them go past. Secondly, hugs are not magic - they do not magically transform monsters into saints - plenty of horrible people get lots of hugs and are still horrible.

Secondly, Spencer didn’t share the video - otherwise he would have demanded they cut the part where he’s seen looking like he’s going to cry after he got a single pop to the face. It seriously undermined his credibility and changed his status from “the dapper leader of the alt-right” to “that guy who got punched in the face and it was hilarious”.

It also changed the conversation from “Isn’t this guy with the strangely Nazi-like arguments who assures us he started this whole movement and isn’t really bad or a Nazi well dressed and so dignified” to “is it okay to punch Nazis like this guy?”. He was no longer a prospective ubermench but just another spoiler rich kid who talks big in the locker room but is weak when he puts his spikes on.

This is exactly the kind of sentiment that allows the system to become so broken that marginalized people are murdered simply for existing and for white hate groups to operate openly - you remove all consequences from the perpetrator by villifying the victim and place all burden of fixing the problem on the people who are suffering the most so as to claims some sort of Ivory Tower Academic High Ground. I mean, for starters - when you have people openly saying the want to reject your society and your values, what makes you think demonstrating those values again is going to change their mind?

Literally no violent hate movement has ever been stopped by hugs and fluffy “you can be better” mumbles. The only people who advocate this kind of nonsense are the people who never have to live under the kinds of conditions that they tell others to just smile about. Slavoj Zizek is an iconic Ivory Tower academic who is regularly criticized for sanctimonious lecturing while failing to provide a viable alternative and Arno Michaels is a man who, by virtue of having been a villain in the past now need only be a vaguely decent person to be comparatively a saint and offers no real insight into any experience but his own.

Indeed, Arno is so oblivious to this that he fails to recognize that Spencer is in no way, shape or form the same brand of Nazi that he was. (Without even considering, or remembering that it was not hugs - but being held accountable for being a failure as a father by his wife that made him start to realize his errors)

His whole argument is based in the assumption that, like he was in his own youth, Spencer is moulded by poverty, abuse and a lack of opportunity (and somehow non-violence will fix this). The reality is that Spencer is an independently wealthy brat who had never been struck before in his life and had been marketing himself as a modern day intellectual aristocrat.

While the ultimate solution is certainly not more Nazi punching, if you’re really opposed to Nazi punching then you should be advocating for Nazi arresting, prison rehabilitation programs and stimulus packages to elevate the quality of life so that types like Spencer have no masses of poor, angry people to recruit.

Not to pretend that other people asserting their right to be treated as human is the real problem (since simple cause and effect and linear times confirms it is not).

Now you’re misrepresenting the iconic puncher:

Also the rise of hate crimes against people who Nazis disapprove of, so maybe before we worrying about the safety of Nazi dignity we should be worried about misinformation and the safety the people targeted by them? No amount of Nazi hugging brings people back from the dead or undoes trauma.

Is there some historical hate leader who magically stopped being racist after a hug?

  • Albert Speer had a loving wife and children, so regular access to hugs, but stated himself that he didn’t see the evil of the actual Nazi regime at the time simply because he didn’t want to.
  • Exalted Cyclops Claiborne Paul Ellis only started to question his creed when he noticed that his supposed “allies” in the city council crossed the street to avoid walking near him, then shifted his views when the promise of deciding where money was spent made his co-chair with Ann Atwater.
  • Imperial Wizard Johnny Lee Clary had many acts of kindness of sympathy extended to him by Reverend Wade Watts (before and after Clary torched Watt’s church) but didn’t abandon the Klan mentality until the Klan turned on him
  • Arno Michaels began his journey away from the White Power movement after his wife chastised him over being an inadequete father to the extent he radically self harmed.
  • Numerous people have decided to leave hate groups after being rehabilitated in a prison program (not in the US, but in civilized countries where they try to rehabilitate prisoners)

I am, however, unable to find any hate group leader who decided to stop his crusade because a stranger gave him a hug and told him he doesn’t need to be racist any more. Empathy is great, but without accountability all you’re doing is rewarding them for their deeds with a free hug.


#403

my world is shattered


#404

I find the instrumentalization of hugs highly questionable!!

No, to be serious. If your goal to confuse someone or to feel uneasy, this hug is not a hug really. It is also just some kind of provocation which might result in him doing something violent.

Can’t someone come up with… I dont know, more mature solutions? I know many people refuse to argue with bad-bad-Nazis, but they are humans after all. And all humans are generally able to reason. (Oh I know this statement will be attacked) So there is a chance to speak to him about his views. And even if this doesn’t work, there is a chance this try might affect the people standing around him, reaching atleast these. Isn’t that worth it?

A punch proves all of them right, that “the fascist left” is not able to handle their innocent free speech.
A hug… well as I said seems weird. They see great issues in the society not being taken seriously, and then there comes a tree-hugging hippie (in their point of view) trying to hug them. It is by far not as bad as punching someone, I just think that this wont help anyone.
This scene will just be milked to death by every viral-emotional media then, making people think that this is the way to handle problems in their life: not adressing them, solving them, but to play them down with exaggerated love.

You dont agree with someone? Hug him! This will show him! Who needs good arguments if you can make the other look like a fool if you prove yourself to be on moral high ground by not hating him!


#405

Actually i was talking about this video:

And i was sure it was a Afro American who punched him, but i’m wrong it was a white man :flushed:.

I agree, but the same goes for a punch in the face, it would not make any nazis less racist or change his way.

I agree, that’s the way to change a nazi views or ways, a punch or a hug will not change anything i’m afraid.


#406

It’s the same event, just a different angle - you can see Spencer has the same clothes on and there’s the same building in the background.

That’s kind of my point about Nazi punching being a symptom of the system being in disaster conditions - it’s not about rehabilitating Nazis, it’s not even really about the Nazis themselves - it’s about the system having reached such a point of failure to deliver accountability and better options that people feel the need to engage in (rather mild) public vigilantism in order to mitigate the influence of people trying to eliminate masses of people for simply existing.

If you’re looking to inspire actual Nazis to stop being Nazis then it depends very much on their situation and why they joined the movement.

The ones who are poor and think that they’re poor because the government favors marginalized people probably aren’t going to settle down unless they are given access to and made aware of opportunities (preferably ones that involve working alongside or in conjunction with marginalized people) and made aware of the real causes of their poverty.

The ones who are doing okay but are simply angry and need a target to externalize their hatred probably won’t settle down without a life changing event and/or therapy.

The ones who are rich (like Spencer) want to justify their situation and push for more advantages… they’re probably not going to settle down unless it becomes a major issue of accountability for them (or they have a life changing event + therapy… since they’re unlikely to address it in therapy without the event).

Generally speaking you don’t sign up for a hate group without having some serious unresolved personal issues and those don’t settle down easily… which is why so many forums of hate sites are both horrifying and hilarious from time to time.


#407

You can’t wish anyone dead,
Even if the baseball cap is red.
But if you see Richard Spencer,
Why don’t you punch him in the head.


#408

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
always treat others
as you would like them to treat you.


#409

If you see Richard Spencer,
Why don’t you give him a big black eye?
Come at him swinging,
Ain’t no one gonna cry.


#410

Why are you so obsessed with this guy and what does it have to do with religion?


#411

Punching Richard
That shouldn’t be fine
But going off-topic
That is a crime