Opinions On Vogt?


Hey be careful we may have to rename the thread thoughts on @RW_Slick


That would be fine with me! Even if tyou guys hated it, I could use the criticism to make it better and best part. . . I WOULD HAVE GOTTEN PAID BY SQUARE ENIX!


If a downvote on Vogt means the return of writers from HITMAN ABSOLUTION then I am obligated to praise Vogt’s writing to the high heavens!

People who do not appreciate how things went obviously have forgotten about stuff like this:

NEVER! AGAIN! :smiling_imp:

If the alternative sees 47 as the best dressed murdering tourist on Earth, I consider that a golden position for him rather than this poor attempt at imitating grindhouse films.

I love it that 47 is carving out a niche as the one video game action hero with the best clothes, the best face, and a dry sense of humor to match.

Yes… I know what that sounds like… But I prefer him over that Owl-Browed Thug in ABSOLUTION. ABSOLUTION wasn’t unique at all to be honest. It was just a riff on Quentin Tarantino films if you ask me.


Absolution’s story was shit and such a slap to the face of longtime fans.

Let’s just bring in some fresh blood, blood that doesn’t want to worship Tarantino or Bond. I want blood that worships Hitman—someone who wants to elevate its storytelling while still staying true to what Hitman is.


I think the series was finding its “storytelling mojo” in HITMAN 2, but the problem there was that 47 kind of put a hard-nosed period at the end of the story:

“I will choose the truth I like.”

It’s basically an Everything and Nothing ending. I thought at the time that it was a great line. It sounded tough and cold, while it can also be interpreted as being made with feelings of dismay or loss of faith in humanity.

But it also was the perfect line for a video game hero to say.

After all, 47 is “all of us and none of us”. There’s a version of him that laughs maniacally while emptying an entire Assault Rifle clip into the Paparazzo, and another one who can fling bales of hay into an unsuspecting Target, and other versions who leave no traces behind of their work - and lets not forget the many versions of 47 that drink a glass of champagne, muttering “Cheers.” as Abiatti fries himself to death on stage.

To write a “canonical version” for a video game is a bit hard, and to be honest, Vogt chose a safe route where 47 is essentially Batman. You see, even the Bond films are about James Bond. Particularly the recent ones with Daniel Craig. The Batman films, especially the Burton ones were about the villains and not Batman himself. Vogt’s Hitman borrows heavily from James Bond but through it all 47 is almost inert.

He’s not the one investigating really, by the end of S1, 47 himself is the enigma and the vast stories from S1 were really the stories of the Targets.

If only for that, I don’t mind the current structure continuing - for a while.
I’m almost at a point where I can install Absolution again without feeling bad. So this “antidote” is working for me. :stuck_out_tongue:

My two cents on a new structure:
There is one structure of story that could be useful: the heroic outsider. This was the structure used for H2 - where 47 is brought in by strangers who turn out to need his help. It’s a popular structure for Westerns, and was used to great effect in the 1978 TV Series “The Incredible Hulk” as well as the hit 1989 TV series “Hard Time on Planet Earth”.

It’s kind of like… what if after leaving Gontrano, in the next game you find 47 somewhere else… living yet another life but realizing he is “cursed” to use his talents over and over again? Yes yes that sounds like “The Equalizer”, but no story is truly original at this point.

However, I’m also not sure how long that can go before the title of “Hitman” - a paid professional working within the highest echelons of power and alternatively feeding and weeding the world’s darkest underbelly - becomes meaningless if he’s always the “powerful stranger who rescues the helpless”. If people are already complaining that 47 has become something of a superhero, then the effects of that would have been accelerated if they kept “pulling a Hitman 2”.


I quite strongly disagree with the people bashing the vibe of a new Hitman.

I’ve played through the whole series numerous times (SA, Contracts, BM, even Absolution) and this “real Hitman storytelling” y’all talk about is still a mystery for me. What storytelling?

There was no storytelling in the old games except the cliched to the core plots (kidnapping Vittorio to bring 47 back; dream-like sequence while being wounded; Franchise eliminated everyone but no one ever saw that except the hints in newspapers) and blatantly copied level ideas from the movies about assassins (Leon Professional and the Contracts final level, drug lord from the Scarface in C47) and spies (each game has a Bond level - St. Petersburg ones from SA especially fit this).

Hitman 2016 is no exception but at least its copycat actions are really well implemented. Game has a quality of the AAA game now, not a niche assassin game with clunky controls from the small Danish studio that you want it to be.

Most of the hate comes from the obsessive fans who wish to play the same old game they did 10 (and in case of SA 15) years ago. It’s like the hate for the Voice Actors - people glorify the absolutely horrible voices from the Blood Money and tear down 2016 which has much more quality in it with hundreds of unique voicelines.

I personally wish for IO to continue the plot the way the deem necessary. Yes, with a few more hints and nods to the classic games but without returning to the non-existent “vibe”.

Old games were and are great gameplay (despite the clunky controls) and level-design wise but story was always awful. It’s just your nostalgia speaking, there never was anything even remotely unique about Hitman’s story.

And, yes, I read a lot of White’s lore posts and found myself disagreeing with him so many times. IMO, she is glorifying the good plot/universe he built inside his head not the actual storytelling that was present (aka the fanon vs. canon). I can agree with her, though, that the Hitman books were awful and deserve to be burned down.


Genetically modified/engineered clone assassins aren’t unique?

Also just fyi, White is a woman.


One of those absolution writers = Vogt.


Not so much. A lot of villains created armies of clones.

My bad, fixed it.


Well I guess it was all about the director then?

I have too much respect of teams, studios, and creatives to speak ill of anyone even if they produce stuff I don’t like.

But on the positive, I have to appreciate whoever took over the helm and managed to re-direct Vogt.

Again, I feel like we needed this. We needed “The Showstopper” to let us know “It’s going to be OK.”

There’s a story for example about BATMAN BEGINS. Originally the film had no Batmobile. But a producer at WB said: “We have to make one. The film needs one to make a statement.” The previous films had featured these stylish hot rods with neon lights as the Batmobile. And they were the work of really great workshops but they were “directed in a certain way”. Fans took a shit at their hardwork but it was never their fault.

When Nolan finally put his mind to what this “statement” would look like. We ended up with Tumbler: the 180 degree anti-thesis of what the previous Batmobiles were. And it worked. It told people “Everything’s going to be OK from now on.” It wasn’t the best batmobile, but in hindsight it was the “antidote” they needed: bulky, angular, loud, and vicious rather than sleek.

It really didn’t say anything about the artisans, machinists, and workshops that built the Batmobile before or since. But… It was an important “change of direction”. And people were happy with them staying on this course for the next three films.

So I have to say that I guess in a way I appreciate Vogt as a writer, and in fact, if he wrote both ABSOLUTION and the current HITMAN then it is testament to his range. He is a true gem.

But I prefer he stays this course at least for now. :slight_smile:

A case in point is that the WB is now back with a “semi-sleek” Batmobile with some curves. So you know, directions change and adjust with time. I just feel we are in a BATMAN BEGINS cycle right now. We are “antidoting” that stuff that was in HITMAN ABSOLUTION.


There’s also a cautionary tale out in the world about what happens when you see a “safe” version of something… like Gareth Edwards’ Godzilla (2014) and then a bunch of “fresh blood” thinks they can outdo him with Godzilla Resurgence (2016):

I heard stuff about GITS suffering from “whitewashing”… well this is what happens when you don’t allow “Western Sensibility” to ground a story… :stuck_out_tongue:

But I digress…

What I mean is every tweak of direction has to be carefully considered. Every non-failing direction (such as the one we have now) should be allowed to prosper, before we try something else. :slight_smile:

Took seven years of “gritty Batman” to kind of steer the ship far and away from where BATMAN & ROBIN was.


It kind of feels to me that people’s standards have simply dropped, and that we’re just happy to have something that isn’t Absolution.


Well… while we’re on the subject of “following in the footsteps of the 007 franchise”. It must be noted that 007 has changed a lot as well.

In time, when we’ve had our fill (or IOI have had theirs) it will be time to change this up - hopefully they’ll do it properly this time. :slight_smile:

I am quietly optimistic. Back in Codename 47 I told myself: “These IOI guys have real talent.” I still hold that view today. :slight_smile:

If there’s one thing about 007 that I hope Hitman adopts and maintains, it is the 007 series’ resilience and flexibility of tone and theme.

Remember though that we are talking about a video game… so story can feed into gameplay design.

For example, if we were to come up with a story where the events happen in just one exotic chain of islands and 47 is supposedly on R&R but encounters a situation that leads him to act - say it kicks off with 47 finding a body for a change… and the Assassin has it out for him… Or 47 discovers the murder after a series of events leads him to understand that as the one who found the body he’d be a suspect too (Say a rich eccentric Hitman-villain-type’s wife is seen to be near 47 when the same Hitman-villain-type winds up dead shortly after arguing with 47 about stealing his woman). So 47 has to change the scene to look like an accident while figuring out who was the real Assassin and so on…

47 starts scaling that ladder - assassinating the Assassin’s accomplices throughout the islands trying to uncover the Assassin’s identity.

And it’s like a large setup situation where various things are happening… and there’s “deals” (sometimes opposing ones which affect the story - where 47 has to pick sides and decide which one he goes after) and things of that nature…

And it plays out more like a Sherlock Holmes story or Detective story but one where you have to keep eliminating certain characters without getting caught so that you can gradually tighten the noose around the real villains of the story… So you’re like a Sherlock Holmes with really deadly investigative methods.

It would be really unusual, but could have gameplay possibilities and having 47 spend some time in the same place (rather than flying all over the world) means 47 has more chance to have exchanges with characters that go from episode to episode. But it would also be risky since people will say: “We used to travel around the world… and now you want us to stay in one place?”

But as a story it could work. And of course there’s the novelty of the place being like Havana or the Maldives… or a mixture of both. :slight_smile: