What about the French who thanks to Alt-Right protesters (and alt-left just for disclosure) hi-jacking the Yellow Jacket movement now face a State of Emergency situation? Or how the chances of Macron’s cabinet now passing those fuel laws, if they thought the government was contemptuous of the rural people before those images of flaming police cars and defaced monuments won’t help.
What’s that? Never heard of it.
@Quinn In Germany you have the right to be not photographed at demonstrations in a way where you are in the focus and not the demonstration in itself. In practice this matters when these photos are made public again. Such actions are only legal if the purpose is to prevent a serious crime.
So far the demonstration back then was allowed by the police, and attending it was within constitutional rights.
So these rights were violated. For example.
I am not informed enough in this matter to say something about it.
Really? Sure you might disagree with the appellation, but if you honestly think there is no shortage of bitter, angry, irrational and/or internet bubble people on the other side you are stark raving mad
In which case, how can we be certain these aren’t in fact photos of the crowd (taken by journalists) with people’s faces visible incidentally, and the alt-righters being identified that way? And to be honest, even if they weren’t, I am worried about any law that criminalizes photography of people in public spaces. Personally, I think it’s more dangerous to ban photography at protests and rallies and have the Government and Police enforce what is done with photographs of individuals attending rallies - When these rallies are heldin public spaces. If you don’t want to run the risk of being identified at a protest, wear a hood or something - Or just don’t go at all. Freedom of speech is allowed, but that shouldn’t mean freedom from accountability as well. It’s very important to raise the “social cost” of fascism in my opinion. I am frankly all for making the fash feel uncomfortable gathering in public to hold their shitty little rallies knowing that someone might identify them.
Basically if you aren’t brave enough to publicly admit that you’re a Fash, a publicly held alt right rally is not for you.
What’s on the other side to Alt Right? Anti Fascists? Because there’s absolutely no moral equivalent between Neo Nazis and those who oppose them.
In what they represent you are 100% equivocally correct. Anti-Fascism takes a moral superiority over Neo-Fascists everyday. But I dislike it when Anti-Fascist groups fell the need to cover their faces and smash up storefronts and cars. I makes them as bad as Neo-Nazis when they do the same things. How can a group claim a moral high ground when you lower yourself to their level on public basis?
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Dude that argument is deader than Bush Senior. We are arguing about something else.
Even in terms of their actions, there’s absolutely no equivalent. You cannot compare property damage and wearing masks to the things that Fascism aims to achieve Which is an authoritarian, ultranationalists, racist and frankly genocidal ideology.
This comes up all the time, and it’s really not a good comparison.
I am not comparing their ideology I know what fascism is I ACTUALLY know what that word means, not the treacly watered down comment bait buzzword it is used as, I know how awful a fascist system is, how they operate and how they are formed. And enough to know that equating a fascist reigme with the racial purging of the Holocaust is ALSO a false equivalency both are terrible but are mutually exclusive
I am just saying we would have a better time shouting down Alt-Right protest if the political alternatives presented themselves in a calm and morally superior manner.
Remember people are incredibly stupid and only think about what is immediate and what is in front of them.
Actually they are exactly this. The photos were most likely made by journalists and reused by the “CoPB”. That is why the photographers probably have not to fear anything.
What I was trying to point out is the usage of the photos. The CoPB put the individuals into the focus (formerly there were 3M photos, probably video frames). Plus the call for identification and messaging their working places, this is crossing multiple lines in our laws.
I also want to note these laws exist as a lesson from the Third Reich.
Even I who is very strong pro-privacy agree on this. Maybe my wording was bad as I wanted to say that taking/using photography in combination with using them in this way is what I dislike.
I don’t like people being generally identified for being there and not for being suspects of crimes that happened there.
How do we even know the people we see on the photos were there? You would have to trust them for the cost of being the tool of denunciation of an innocent.
I’m not sure I understand this, if I see a photo of a demonstration I’m going to assume that a person who is using similar gests to the rest of the demonstrators is part of the demonstration
Here is an example of the site (the black bar was not added by me).
I cannot say if this is a picture of a certain demonstration, can you?
I did not know you meant a headshot, sorry
No worry it is good to have things being clarified.
I refer to the Alt Right as Fascists because that’s what they are and that’s what their views align to. It’s a new name for the same thing, just as “The Great Replacement” is the politically correct name for “White Genocide” (A racist conspiracy theory that White people are being replaced by darker skinned people in Western countries). They want to rebrand their bigotry, I say fuck them. I’ll call them what they are.
If we’re more polite to the fascists, they’ll stop being fascists? Or other people will be convinced that they’re bad? Because I disagree - Fascism is not rational. If it could be defeated in debate with pure facts and appeals to better nature then that would have happened many times over, but sadly it doesn’t. I’ll leave the next word to a Holocaust survivor who knows better than any of us:
How does banning photographs from public rallies act as a lesson from the Third Reich though? To me this seems like an authoritarian idea masqueraded as a defence of personal freedom - But there’s no freedom involved when it comes to the Government and the Authorities dictating what can and can’t be done with images of public rallies, or who is allowed to take them, etc.
Ok, we may be getting somewhere now - Perhaps I misunderstood your initial comment. So the problem as you see it is the fact that people are being identified and doxed from the photos, and not the fact the photos exist? In which case, the view is that we should criminalize behaviour rather than criminalize ideas.
I see why you think that, but it’s also rather dangerous. What’s the happy medium, is there one? Because I don’t see how you can legally stop people using publicly available images taken by journalists to identify people that are in these images. It’s also an attack on personal freedom. It’s akin to having a book available in a public library on how to build sand castles. You can rent it, you can read it, you can look at the pictures of sand castles - But you better not try to build a sand castle!
No, but i’m willing to bet we can find out if we follow the digital breadcrumbs.
I’ve previously stated that I am all for doing things that raise the social cost of fascism. I have no moral qualms about people being identified for attending alt-right rallies. Many of these people were identified, for example:
Freedom of speech works both ways. You can espouse ideas that most of society find abhorrent if you really want to. But if you’re going to do it in public, you should be prepared to face the social consequences that come with it. If your friends and family disown you because of it? If your employer fires you because they don’t like being associated with torch-carrying white nationalism? Tough shit.
Also, how would such laws affect the role of investigative journalists? Shaun King, an American reporter, basically single handedly used publicly available images and videos from the Unite the Right rally to identify some alt-right supporters who brutally beat and attacked a counter protester. He outed them, reported his findings to police and they were arrested. Now imagine living in a world where his actions there were criminialized . Not sure I want to live in that world.
That is just as disgusting as Social Liberalism being deemed Left by Far-Right people. I call a spade a spade people who believe in “The Great Replacement” are racist conspiracy theorists they might also be fascists but you can be fascist and not be a racist.
True, far too true. Freedom of Speech is and never has been Freedom form Consequence.
Actually it did there have been only two truly fascist governments Nazi Germany and the Third Italian Empire. Both were defeated by morally superior ideologies with armies full of people who believed in the rights of man, also many people in Hitler’s own government doubted both him and the fascist regime to the point where assassination was on the table. Not to mention countless German’s who were only part of the Wehrmacht (via conscription) but not the SS or Nazi party. Even Hitler faced the reality of his ideals and how they would not survive the defeat of the Third Reich.
I just want people to act like adults and make the babies on the far-right truly embarrassed to be themselves. Fascism is not irrational, racism is and both ideologies can be replaced if people make a conceited effort in engaging with people. Like the Replace Hate (not sure on the name) organisation that helps reform Neo-Nazis and integrate them into society
Also that picture might just be what happens when the Enchanted Tiki Room at DisneyLand breaks down.
I wont defend the far-right, their bigotry, lack of critical thinking, how they twist words, news and situations they know nothing about or litany of other problems. I won’t respect their demands for a bias society under laws deemed suitable for all human life, I wont respect how they beat journalists or kids in the streets.
If a person is using photos to dox someone and call for actions against him, this is the line for me. I think we have judicative and executive powers for that. And them being divided is something very undervalued as well.
If a journalist is identifying someone within an article without calling for actions but instead aims to inform people, this can work out. I think the individual person should have rights against that too but only if he/she is no person of public interest (Unlike being a criminal or politician or important business guy). I would have a hard time giving this a proper definition but I hope you understand what I mean with this.
I feel kind of stupid for not seeing a problem here. Of course you mean something else than sand castles, but the problem of people misusing knowledge is not knowledge.
If you instead mean normative writings, this surely can be something different.
I am sure one can do that. Even though it is not that easy. Question is if we can assume people do that before helping to identify the person.
I do that’s why I always use multiple pseudonyms and rarely have pictures of me online. Not because I think I do something bad, but because I know some people need little reasons to not like me and doing shit with me.
I think we should have a common idea when we need to dox someone for what he does and when we don’t do that. For me, it is when someone commits a crime and the dox is needed to solve it.
Currently, the common idea among the far-left and alt-right or far-right is “I don’t support his idea”. And I don’t like the subjective character of that approach.
So after this threads millionth adventure in Godwin’s Law I want to put this up.
I was right on a March election even before the budget was announced. Funny, ABC should really just title this “Labour wins 2019 Election”. They should also get rid of the article that read "Is Baby, It’s Cold Outside, To Rapey For Radio
Not really true, not counting puppet states of the Axis like Yugoslavia and Greece during WW2, Japan, Hungary, Portugal and Spain have all gone through periods of fascism. Spain and Portugal’s only ended quite recently, 1975 and 74 respectively.