Ghandi was from a wealthy family, went to the best schools available and travelled to work as a lawyer - he had every advantage that truck drivers, taxi drivers and people dependent on Uber to make ends meet from week to do not.
Dr Martin Luther King Junior was a second generation baptist minister who went to one of the best black schools available, graduated college with a BA in Sociology, and went on to attain a PhD. Before he began his protest of an issue that’d been a problem all his life, he spent literally decades in what was essentially preparation and then he networked with hundreds of people who’d also been working to combat the same issues: The authority still considered him a criminal.
This is a protest in relation to a relatively recent economic decision that effects many people who’s problems include that they did not have access to education, and that they can’t say they’ve survived decades or centuries of this - they’re worried they’ll be homeless in six months. How can one in good conscience expect them to match leaders who had decades of help building to who they were?
So just die?
So you want someone who didn’t learn how to research to do research, and you feel that their ability to pay rent and feed their family is not an “emotional core”?
If there is not an emotional core, why would anyone turn up to risk being tear gassed, have your head cracked open with a nightstick, get arrested and appear on television in tears with blood all over you? Why would they do it now? Why haven’t they been doing this all their life?
Well how can one thousand people from hundreds of villages across one of the largest nations in Europe? What are they supposed to do fit all of them into The Hall of Mirrors with Macron? These protest need a leader, central guiding text or at least a core ideal and goal to work for. Ghandi was the head of the Independence movement, MLK Jr. was the civil rights leader hell even George Washington and the Founding Fathers at the Continental Congress. If we are talking Gauls we have De Gaulle and Moulin for the French Resistance, hell even Vercingetorix and the Roman Occupation.
Now tell me who was the head of the Occupy Movement? (Which I wholeheartedly supported), BLM? (Which I also supported, they still do community out reach programs from what I understand. At least some cells do) Did those two groups accomplish anything at all at a major level? The closest online or mass protest movement that has succeeded is MeToo, but even MeToo had leaders; the Weinstein Victims and especially Rose McGowan.
TL;DR You NEED a leader if you have a protest movement, otherwise you flounder around, only the basic steps will be done and you open yourself to unsavoury elements that manipulate your movement. You need to have someone who fully understands the issue at hand. France’s involvement overseas, US trade issues, hell even what the tax laws are. Come up with solid concrete tenants even one single uniting idea or hell even someone with charisma that can unite whole groups of people in a unifying way.
You’re the one who thinks they’re just going to overnight become extremely educated, well networked and organized with the resources to stage an orderly protest that results in no collateral damage.
So in the absence of their own extremely well educated orator who has decades of training and experience they should just what? Die?
Cool story bro - but essentially what this does is advocate that only well educated and practiced orators should weigh in on political issues… people who don’t have one of those show up to lead them should just? Die?
It’s not like this movement has had a former general, several CEOs of major companies, artistocrats with decades of public service, etc who intimately understand the issue and can just step in and lead them - this is an issue that effects people from blue collar backgrounds and people who’ve become dependent on ride sharing because the government has failed to provide them the opportunity to make a living.
The Occupy Movement was initially sabotaged by their feeling they needed to have leaders, and inadvertantly giving leadership positions to terrible people such as a Google employee who advocates reinstating fuedalism (with tech workers like her occupying the role of aristocrats) and debt slavery (yes).
The Black Lives Matter movement has numerous rise up and set up for their individual areas, DeRay Mckesson spent years working full time on it, including doing things like entering political races just so he could speak at the events.
He’s famous among black people in the US (even getting a high profile mention in the “Dear White People” Netflix series). But he’s rarely credited for his work and accomplishments in mainstream media because it’d be admitting he has a point when he talks about the media complicit… he was also a school administrator - so another well educated orator.
Rose McGowan quickly became a liability to the MeToo movement when she started going on bizarre rants comparing being a woman to being black (as though black women don’t exist…) and generally focusing only on her own interests…
A bigger factor in the success of MeToo as that Harvey Weinstein was in a position where he could not field his usual defences against the first few who spoke out, his company was already drowning in debt and his lawyers would have known it. Once a few people were able to speak out, more came forward and it became unstoppable for him.
I can’t help but think that if you were actually that big a fan of MLK, you would know that he never condemned people who didn’t have one of these leaders because he acknowledged it was not their fault they lacked a well educator orator and that it was largely the fault of the people in power. He also was very particular in saying none violence was best for “the American Negro” (not everyone else, who he didn’t feel he could speak on behalf of).
Later he would also go on to say the biggest enemy of progress was people who were more demanding of the protestors than they were of the establishment.
Over the last few years many Negroes have felt that their most troublesome adversary was not the obvious bigot of the Ku Klux Klan or the John Birch Society, but the white liberal who is more devoted to “order” than to justice, who prefers tranquility to equality….
Sigh I am sorry for carrying on. I just want to see people get along. Is human fucking decency in protesting to much to ask? It use to be that when people wanted something done they would sit down and meet from the sturdy Resolute Desk to even the Hall of Mirrors. There used to debates on issues from broadcast news to the steps of memorials, they would think about people who should lead them instead of picking debt slavers (I forgot about that, it is what happens when you don’t screen members), people used to take conceivable and peaceable actions to a result. Freedom Riders, Salt Marches, Sit-Ins and hundreds more.
Hell even blue collar people did protesting, Prosperity in Poland was blue collar people. They had 21 tenants they wanted, they organised into groups and protested. They managed to get what they wanted for a brief while. You don’t need a degree, boardroom position or parlour . It used to be if you had common sense and passion you got stiff done
Now it is about property damage, kicking out people you dislike for no reason, making things worse for everyone, people getting their lives ruined or even killed over taxes and in the end many of these movements will just fade away, they will only come up when discussing the Public Sphere. All the McKessons will disappear (I never knew about the guy so thanks for sharing, I am Australian so first hand knowledge is hard to come by on BLM) and all that is left are a bunch of events with no people, no meaning and no context.
I was raised to believe that if you want something done you get up and try to do as much as humanly possible for the benefit of everyone. I guess seven billion people is a lot to micromanage. God I hate the internet, the problem with a global village is that is is inhabited by tribals
I also criticize every protest that is doing damage of any kind. But still there are many peaceful protesters, usually the majority, who cannot afford to go home and wait for the next movement that is doing better. Or is having an iconic head figure.
If you’ve ever been at a bigger demonstration you will realize how the ten people doing shit get 90% of the media coverage while the big majority is forgotten. It surely is more extreme at the yellow vests, but still.
I visit every demonstration I share the idea of, and go home the moment it gets wild. I can imagine to stay if the state is becoming bad enough though, but this is by far not the case.
Rule Number 8000 of debating on the Internet: Before you invoke MLK, make sure you’ve actually read enough of his words to avoid making a fool of yerself:
Letter from Birmingham Jail (ext)
By Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.”
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
The last mass protest in this country was the school walk out over global warming. It was a bunch of eight to fifteen year olds, so yeah not the crowd that rip light poles out the side walk. And you are right the media also plays a big part in how a movement is displayed. But still those kids completely owned the PM but nearly as bad as how Labour will own the Libs next March.
If human decency itself would have prevented the need for the protest? Probably. Again, I stress: These are people who are worried about being jobless, homeless and destitute because the rise in petrol costs will make them unable to afford their basic lifestyles.
Notice how that part of the conversation is being omitted?
So why are the people with lawyers, PR departments, accountants, assistants etc excluded from accountability for the decisions that led to this but the people who have to find a way to eat not?
This is known as the “model minority” syndrome, whereby the people with power select one successful group who did all the things the people with power wanted and happened to get what they wanted - so claim it is cause/effect and thus:
Exhempt themselves from any responsibility for their own decisions that lead to the poverty and misery
Blame the poverty and misery of the people they’re exploiting on the people being exploited
Pressure the exploited, poor and miserable to fight with each other over the “best” approach rather than pressure the establishment to improve
Conveniently omit that even a model minority will be punished if they step too far out of line
Dr Martin Luther King Jr was a model minority and he was imprisoned, had the FBI running harassment campaigns and was ultimately assassinated because the law enforcement went out of their way to give a lone man with a gun the opportunity.
So stop talking about the property damage and listen to the crowd - that is what Dr King proposed was the solution. Agree with them that Marcon and the rest of the world leaders need to get their shit together and start:
Ensuring the rich pay their fair share of taxes
Hold oil companies accountable to fair trade expectations
Look for holistic solutions to economic problems rather than just wait for Uber to band aid it
Provide better channels for the unheard to be heard
Then the people who want to vandalise and rob will not have a crowd of righteously angry protestors to hide in and leave holding the blame for.
DeRay did not disappear at any point during the BLM campaign - he instead worked to combat misinformation about the “riots” and attended the protests at the front line. He continued doing it after he was arrested:
Because for him Black Lives Matter is not a hobby, it’s not an academic exercise - it is a move to save the lives of people like him who live under constant threat of police brutality.
The reason you hadn’t heard of him is his existence is inconvenient to the white liberal who the media courts, the one who values order over justice and wants to believe that centuries of racism, economic inequality, political corruption, etc are all really (in some way) the fault of a crowd that happened to include someone who wanted to smash a window and steal something.
Cool story - but blaming protestors for their response to corporations and governments destroying their livelihood in order to display costs onto people who can least afford it doesn’t really help with that does it?
I watched the french demonstrations quite much the whole day on a Ruptly livestream and wondered who the hell this group with the red armbands is. They seemed to be police, professionally acting (in terms of riot combat) but wear jeans and are not all exactly muscular built like you expect police to be. But they are way more agressive than the other police groups.
Finally found out they are called “Brigade Anti-Criminalité” (BAC). I can only find french articles, anyone knows something about them?
It is not ommitted from where I am, I understand the initial reason as to why the Yellow Jackets existed and why I supported them. My problem is that Macron has now repealed the tax laws and is making plans to address his nation early next week. My problem is that this protest has lost all meaning since people are now using it to want everything under the sun and are not engaging in civil communication of their issues.
I want that too. The issue is that unless I lived in France I would never have know that these were the issues they were fighting for. The media here in Oz has only focused on the violent protesters and it makes it sound like they are whining about having to take the bus now.
The problem is when politicians see people smashing things and people dying they will ignore all the sensible people in those crowds, the media will focus on the most violent offenders and the world will see only violent people. They will appease the violent hi-jackers who only wanted the basic things.
BAC are a type of special police squad that focuses on small level to medium level crimes. They are plain clothes officers that work as peacekeepers from time to time according to a Wikipedia France page I found
So… people who’ve gone unheard for years have finally got the attention of the establishment… and they have things to say!? Could that be because the latest incident was actually just the straw that broke the camel’s back and these people are trying to use this rare opportunity to maximum effect!?
That’s certainly not the fault of decades of misgoverning and actively working to expand the wealth divide.
The issue is not unique to France - pretty much everywhere in the world has had shitty governments that have appeased oil companies and allowed them to exploit local businesses, huge amounts of the world have allowed disruptive businesses such as Uber and AirBnB to band aid their economic problems by giving people who are struggling a means to make ends meet for another few weeks to the long term detriment.
France recently banned Uber, after years of it operating dangerously, without paying taxes, being accountable, etc and its been long enough it’s spawned other ridesharing companies (because people are still desperate enough to let strangers into their car, and strangers are still eager to get cheap rides) so the problem lives on (that and frankly, Uber has a long running reputation for ignoring being outlawed and continuing to operate and just let the drivers take the risk) *
The reason they have people smashing windows and vandalising monuments is because the politicians have been working really, really, really hard to avoid listening to the sensible people and have been prioritizing other people over the people who need assistance.
Next time you read about a riot that results in destruction, vandalism, etc. take a moment to consider what would have to happen for you to feel it was worth it to go out and stand in protest of something while you have people like that around you, then to come back and protest again after you get tear gassed and watch someone get beaten to a pulp by the cops in front of you.
Think you’d do it over having a little less disposable income?
_* Since you’re in Australia - you might want to see how Uber was operating in Queensland: Hint, they were operating illegally and just letting the drivers absorb the fines.
I have no problem with the common man wanting to get the attention of the government but I think peaceful protest and human communication are important.
Bullshit when you have national monuments with anti-leader (not leadership or government) graffiti on them it is clear it is no longer about issues and it is about people and their petty political parties.
When people in Brussels slap on a hi-vis vest and have only one goal the removal of a leader they don’t like then that is bullshit.
Yes and that is disgusting. That type of corporate behaviour is terrible but there is a way to get results without needing to seriously injure people, without ruining other peoples lives and it is by meaningful dialogue.
I mean ride-sharing encourages car-pooling, it has less social stigma than a taxi or bus, it keeps people employed and is essential to helping reduce dependence on singular vehicles. Uber is a horrible company and they have done horrible things we have made moves to punish Uber here and it was through proper legal channels. But we need to work out the issues with this sort of business model instead of junking it.
There are times and issues tat demand violent protest but I feel this issue could have been solved through peaceful protest and operation of legal channels. There is no issues the Yellow Jackets want that can’t be got through peaceful protest.
If there is even a remote chance of some people turning the protest or group into some feral orgy of violence I would not and could not associate myself with a group that would do such things or allow them to continue. No tax law or raised pension is worth the harm to another soul or the sheer hypocrisy of a groups actions. The human voice is stronger than any clenched fist, than any makeshift weapon. I believe in artful and literate ways of dealing with civic issues
I advise that the next time a protest beats up a journalist or copper in the street, deprives an person’s livelihood by robbing them or looting them blind or your nation is declared a state of emergency and your civic freedoms are temporarily deprived. Ask yourself whether the protest is worth it, what if there is an alternative way?
I think both of our post should be the last ones for this argument it is clear that neither of us will ever change our minds. I don’t care how inflammatory our (especially mine) remarks seem there is no point derailing the thread any longer.
So do I, which is why when you have protests like this I immediately ask what did the government do to create this situation - because clearly peaceful and civil means of communication have failed.
Okay, so if one person puts anti-leader graffiti on a monument that invalidates all the real issues… that’s awful convenient for the establishment! “Oh, we were going to take these issues seriously but someone ruined it… I guess we’ll keep making things worse and it’s EVERYONE ELSE’S FAULT!”
You think that Brussels is somehow immune to the same problems? Brussels didn’t even do anything to try to stop Uber, they just focused on giving bad press to the taxi drivers who were losing their livelihoods as a result of the government’s incompetence.
Is it somehow impossible their leader has not been the one making a lot of bad decisions that have been to the detriment of the working class who are most affected by a petrol tax?
But nobody should do anything about it?
Well then get pissed off at the government that didn’t facilitate that, not at the people who got so frustrated at the lack of progress on a decision that was clearly terrible on top of many many other bad decisions.
Why do you keep insisting on giving the people in power a free pass?
That’s a very easy stance to take from an ivory tower of being someone who has plenty of time to spend playing video games and arguing on the Internet - it’s not as easy stance to take when you’re someone who works full time and has to spend extra time driving for a ride sharing company or you’re a truck driver who is looking at having their family evicted.
Unless of course you’re advising that if you had children in your direct care, you’d rather than live in a box and miss out on education just so you didn’t have to dirty your pride by attending a rough protest.
Cool - so the plebs should just die rather than embarass the establishment?
Can you see why the plebs might consider this stance to be violence to be returned with violence?
Cool story. But doesn’t explain why politicians should be allowed to create situations that lead to riots and destruction, then blame the people who are at risk of homelessness.
See you say you’re opposed to these things - but you haven’t proposed anything that would prevent these situations or help people avoid the need for them. You’re just blaming thousands for the actions of dozens.
But the politicians have listened to them and Macron is due to address his public this week he has been at the COP25 and G20 this fortnight. He has barely had time to comprehend anything that has gone on especially since the YJ have course corrected overnight.
You championing the common man? If so you should use the word pleb. I support any ones right to protest so long as it is in according to a PEACEFUL MANNER!!! What is so hard to understand. There is a reason why the streets are Martin Luther King or Ceasar Chavez and not Malcolm X or anyone else.
But the French government did allow the YJ to protest peacefully. It was only when they became violent the government forces did. Hell I supported the YJ protesting until they turned violent. Ideologically I support what they want I just don’t support them
Oh sod your dirty reductive tactics I don’t want that to happen to anyone but someone is bound to be disadvantaged. I hear the bail for assaulting a police officer is expensive. I am sure some police officer is bankrupt right now from paying off his medical expenses may even be crippled. I am sure the families that have had to arrange funerals are having the time of their lives. Then men and women who can’t pay rent because their stores were looted by anarchists. Then this pseudo-Gaulish cycle will continue until everyone in France is cripple, broke and/or miserable
They should and they should do it peacefully or legally not act like evolutionary rejects.
I am not. Persistence is key here hundreds of years Terra Nulius was a thing here for hundreds of years it was the oppression of Aboriginal Land Rights and it was abolished through peaceful means by one man and a sheet of paper.
Sanctimonious, you know nothing about me or my daily life. I struggle everyday, I struggle to get to university taking the bus all to save my planet, struggle to get people to do even the most basic environmentalism, I have trouble getting a new job since I quit working as a stockist. I have trouble with a variety of OCD attacks and not using medication since I hate big pharma.
If I want better buses I complain to my council, complain to my electorate ,hell I will take it up with ScoMo if I have too. I will lay on the road with a sign like Arthur Dent. I will not hogtie a driver take him to he depot and bash him and the buses while shouting I want faster buses. I don’t bash the Woolies people for being tossers and I wont burn down the restaurant that rejects my CV. I protested my uni cuts with an organised march and I will protest again if I have too, I will vote out Liberal pollies next March. Sorry if I have principles and they have not been tested.
If I want a higher pension in France I would hold a sign, start a petition or even write a top 40 pop song for the local radio. I will not harm someone who might be struggling just as much as me, I will not erode the civic order just to get what I want. I will arrange meetings with my androissment (that is what they are called right? Are you even French?) to lower rent or taxes.
I am not I want a MUTUAL SOLUTION not some demagoguery that benefits no one at all. I get pissed when my government opens a new coal mine while the QLD premier says global warming fuels fires I am not even a QLDer. I get angry when my premier wants to sell our energy battery, I have attended protests, gotten protest poetry published, I changed my sub-major to sociology so I can understand society more so I can be more critical about the world around me. Sorry if my humanity means I fall wayward once and a while, not do proper research or miss key issues.
Now can we please just stop this. We have reached an intellectual impasse and neither of us is going to change our minds. Too continue doing so is a waste of our time, we will never switch sides but we can agree to disagree and simply move on having reached mutual understanding
Obviously they had not listened or they would never have gotten into this position in the first place. If people ask me not to touch something, I knocked it off a shelf and then go “Oh, it’s broken… I shouldn’t have touched it.” that isn’t me listening - that’s just trying to get out of trouble for not listening.
If they’d been doing their jobs they wouldn’t be in this situation.
Yes… I had thought that’d be obvious by now.
Cool so when peaceful protests aren’t getting the response you support their right to starve to death?
I think that’s worse than using pleb to illustrate the flaw in this logic.
So you support them in theory, but not enough you care if they actually live or die.
Nobody wants it to happen, but that means nothing if you support the system that leads to it happening doesn’t it? Like if I touch the thing people ask me to touch, I don’t necessarily want to break the thing - but that doesn’t stop it breaking.
You just gave Marcon a free pass because after it was shown his decision was so spectacularly bad for the public interest in resulted in high profile protests that turned into international news he went “Oh yeah… um… I’ll change my mind now.” and don’t want him to have to deal with anything that led up to it.
After all his decision to enact a tax hike that could easily leave many of the most desperate in his nation homeless is essentially an action of mass violence against those people, carried out through the legislation and the police.
Why does he get the golden pass?
You know nothing about the daily lives of Yellow Jacket protestors - it didn’t even occur you to that a hike in fuel prices would impact their lives in manners that could leave them directly impoverished.
Cool story - they don’t want better buses in six months, they want to not be evicted next month and left without a home to put their families in and most of them did still limit themselves to holding signs and chanting - otherwise there would not be an inner city Paris left.
A very compelling real world example.
That’s not much of a test really - I mean are you good or do you just lack the courage to do evil? Have the uni cuts resulted in you losing what you can see as your last means of being unable to feed your family? Did anyone in Yellow Jackets burn down a restaurant because they didn’t get a job?
Then put the focus on the people with the power to fix it. Talk about what pieces of shit the governments who give oil companies free passes and tax the working class are, support the people of Belgium when they want to end leadership that grants massive tax concessions to their wealthiest while raising taxes for the working class, advocate for greater government support of public protests so that they can occur without risks of violence and escalation.
Don’t side with the status quo and then try to collect a cookie for wanting progress.
I’m not sure that’s going to help you if you are just going to distill every complicated sociological issue down to “these people shouldn’t be personally violent in public”
You can stop replying or posting in this thread any time you like, that’s your business, that’s your privilege. I however, am not obligated to give you some sort of middle ground concession because you started this mess in a thread discussing the news and now don’t want to deal with someone disagreeing you.
You seem to talk about this quite a lot. . I mean what about those people that were arrested. They could be fired and that means they not only might lose their job but they might never get a job again. Then they would starve still even if the laws were changed. I am sure there are police officers who could starve if they are crippled in a riot. There are middle-class urbanites with entire stores looted or shops closed. What about them?
He didn’t. He wanted to help the environment he just couldn’t find the right middle ground, you know that that global warming will kill more people than some trucker losing his job, it will cause major changes to lives everywhere. Why are you giving a pass to the YJs for protesting just because they have good intentions, the road to hell is paved with them Godwin anyone?. I mean what if the Yellow Jackets organised a Sean Rose style bombing that kill five kids, would give them a free pass? Would you still encourage that behaviour, (you see I can hid behind children and families too)
I am, I have and I will. I will do so in a peaceful mindful manner that considers not just the present but the future. I will do my utmost to stop violent protest, I will combat those that seek to hurt and main with love, empathy and wisdom I have evolved to have.
The second those Belgian YJs collectively kick a journalist or smash a window that is it, done. I will support Belgium’s right to hold big oil accountable but I will not support the Belgium YJs. If tomorrow the YJs of France turn in their violent members I will support them as a group. So long as a group
Now here is an article that shall attract no arguments whatsoever.
It is about how fungi and bacteria can be used in artistic preservation. If any of you feel like arguing with bacteria then read up on Pericles, he was quite the orator and statesman in his time. Died in a plague, because plagues don’t care about politics. Be like an endobacteria