The only additional 2 NPC’s I KO-ed was the person mopping the floor in the Sanguine Clothing Shop and the Guard downstairs you mentioned. Everybody else is unharmed.
This is also what I think is happening. However, instead of mapping “Sound Escape” through doors and windows like you would for tracking AI/NPC sightlines, I think what might be happening instead is that there maybe “Volumetric Cubes” representing 3D space so that the logic for sound travelling in open air and through rooms/doors/windows is actually the same.
Like in UE4, you can set up a “Volume” to control certain things about the world and it is represented as a cube in the editor:
So what I was thinking is that for sound, maybe they have many of these volumes to allow them to program, section-by-section, map-by-map, the different rules for how sound travels between a particular set of rooms, out in the open air, and down a set of stairs, etc.
It’s similar to what you were thinking about the “two doors”. But in this case, where I actually fired a gun out into the open air and yet, characters that “should be within earshot” actually act deaf… how to explain that… except that “there is no such thing as open air”.
A “blanket set of rules” about sound governing an entire face where you can graphically have windows or doors or just a wall is another possible reason why as you mention:
“The open doors to 47’s suite balcony do stop sound as if a boundary; some open windows/doors do this, some (such as the open window in Antoine Mack’s bathroom in Miami) do not.”
The “boundaries” in those cases could be the bounds of the Volume Cubes that we cannot see when the game is active because we are not in Glacier Editor.
To have TWO logic systems for sound as you mention later is a bit too much. I think IOI would prefer one, and again, I only base my observation on the idea that similar “World Controlling Rules” can be implemented using Volume cubes as in UE4.
The “bugs” we think are happening can be explained possibly as gaps between the Volumes. If there is a large one for example governing the airspace between my sniper nest and the Cemetery, imagine if there is a gap in it that misses the NPC’s gathered on the beach for example or even that it’s not passing the sound on to the cemetery or something. Yet the volume I’m in is connected immediately downstars… that would explain the behavior.
But again… overall my theory is the same as yours regarding a starting sound magnitude and the idea that it somehow has to travel or get passed on. I just don’t think it’s differentiating between doors and open air.
That said… even in a Volume-centric solution, you can have flags for “Doors Open” or “Doors Closed” since even those are governed by switches in mini-Volumes usually. So “two doors” as is can still come into play, just not in the obvious real world sense.
Video showing the effects of the Jaeger 7 Lancer on the two NPC’s I missed earlier that @immadummee47 pointed out:
Video showing further test of the Jager 7 Lancer and verifying the large number of unaffected NPC’s.
Basically only two locations appear to be affected by what I did: The area immediately below mine, and the lateral Level 2 Shop Area up to a certain point, but not a “spherical area” it would seem as a lot of NPC’s just don’t notice at all.
Note that the results of these appear to vary. A shot taken from the Apartment Buildings into the Docks is even longer than the one I took and yet can cause Combat, and of course the aforementioned Safehouse Balcony test @CHAOS_AGENT_45 has put on video.
Again, it would seem a “chain of Volumes” is at work. Though of course without breaking Glacier open we wouldn’t know.
I started to take interest in this subject a couple days ago. This thread is great with alot of theories and some valid proof on how the new sniping-system works.
What i have learned so far:
No armed NPC should witness a target being shot down. They will immediatly shoot at you if they witness a sniper-kill.
Even the ghost-sniper make a noticeble sound that will attract nearby guards attention. This only affect guards. Unarmed civilians wont mind the sound. Conclusion: Make sure you dont snipe near guards.
Solution/strategies: Do not kill a target in a crowd of guards. They will fire at you, and run towards you. Try to find a moment when the target is near as few guards as possible. Create a diversion for the guards and make them look away. As long as their not faceing the intended target when he gets shot, they will not do a thing. Other than run up to the body of course.
Another strategy is to create a bigger diversion. Blow up a car, or a bike. Two shots on the hood and it blows up. Most, or all guards will now face that car. Take out the target and you can walk away with ease.
I think the base of this new system IS logical. But it still needs some adjusting in my opinion. But i personally like the greater challenge in what the new system brings.
I would love to see others share more strategies on this issue.
Yes. What you are describing is kind of the “Blue Pill” description of what we know works while the talk of Logic Volumes and Ray Projected Tracing is sort of a “Red Pill” view of what’s happening.
Thinking in the “Blue Pill” way will work everytime yet it can contribute to frustration when some obvious spots (Eg: Towers in Sapienza, Water Tower in Colorado) are not ideal for sniper solutions as you can get caught just for missing out one thing.
Thinking in the “Red Pill” way can be rewarding but requires lots of experimentation and can result in strange spot selection (Eg: using Sapienza Safehouse Balcony, Telescope Balcony on Shop Level 2, or a bush in Colorado and a tiny hole through a window).
May I suggest we probably start another thread listing known safe spots and what rifles are recommended for them?
As well as videos demonstrating their use?
If IOI have no plans to listen to those decrying the state of sniping. The flipside is we can use their stonewalling to our advantage.
The other way is we just continue it here…
A bit Off-Topic but in a way this is what we’re doing now…We’re looking for “909” spots in each map of HITMAN 2 + Legacy Pack! lol
Yeah it’s still frustrating from time to time. When I were taking out guards on the mansion from the tower one guard was hidden behind a pillar. Impossible to see and work around. But at least the system isn’t broken. It just needs a little adjusting.
Starting a new thread wouldn’t be a bad idea. I could summarize the working strategies on the first post, and include the videos explaining different scenarios. I will look into it tonight if no-one else does it before me.
The most stringent acid test is to do something similar to what @CHAOS_AGENT_45 did with the Sapienza Safe House and what I did with the Sapienza Shop Floors.
The main thing is to assert that results are repeatable. For example, I did the Shop Level 2 setup at least three times on three different play sessions. I think @CHAOS_AGENT_45 may have done the Safehouse thing tens of times.
It is tempting to just use Sieger 300, but that won’t help us figure out which Volume/Zones are probably in a vacuum. These vacuum spaces… which we can call “909’s” (hehehe)… would be the most valuable, and because in a way we’re counting on a mistake by an IOI mapmaker, we don’t expect all maps to have them, though Sapienza has been shown to contain more than one.
But if we are certain a map does not contain any loose Volumes that can be exploited in this way, we can switch to Sieger 300 tests and instead focus on sightline obstruction.
That’s kind of what I’m thinking.
The thread is here:
What happens if you use the Kashmirian Sniper Nest “clean” (without an additional bullet distraction) does it function as a 909?
The Kashimirian also has a second Sniper Nest… so if the first one is protected from detection then maybe both of his nests are priviledged areas?
It seems nobody in the motel reacted to your shots and no one in the street went crazy?
It is time to assemble these spots my friend.
If these are here to stay… might as well make use of their existence.
Just get the shot with no one looking at the target.
Tried it in whittleton creek and it worked like a charm, or simply flee from the area you shot him from until shit calms down
In the Golgo 13 episode “Room 909” I linked above, Duke Togo performs a sniper kill from this room in a hotel. An investigation of how Duke could have made the shot from there just seems to confirm that Room 909 is an “impossible location” for making the shot as it defies physics etc.
Likwise a “909” in HITMAN 2 is a location that “defies physics”… like the Sapienza Safehouse Balcony or the Level 2 Shops… any place that exhibits odd behavior but where an “impossible shot” can be done (ie: Jaeger Lancers that cannot be heard etc).
A 909 is a place that puts a shooter outside the bounds of suspicion.
I still think it’s odd you can just climb into the Kashmirian Nest fire an SVD and there’s no alert from within the hotel.
That svd is silenced though. Is it not?
I don’t know about the one the Kashmirian uses, but the one 47 has isn’t
Scroll further up and you will see some examples that defy explanation but are repeatable.
This is what i’m going to try later today now that I’ve done ET No. 3 and finished the Snow Festival challenges.
Again, this is part of the exploration of the theory. Though I am now aware the SVD the Kashmirian has may not be identical to the one 47 has.
Make no mistake, I’m not happy the game is in this state. But “there is opportunity in crisis”. And even if you don’t want to believe in the existence of 909’s… it is already proven by others that they exist.
We might as well use them to our benefit.
We have the “Room 909” thread for any areas found that exhibit this kind of behavior or at least can be setup for that behavior.
Even your experiences in Colorado may be helpful as they could be clues towards weaknesses in the map’s build or design. Maybe a 909 can count as where a Target is and not just where 47 is. It’s just more ideal in cases where the 909 is where the shot is taken as that is more control for us.
Another member noted that he also got a clean kill in Colorado using a Bush and shooting Sean Rose through a window in his house. That is potentially another 909 situation (ie: Is he using a bush in a Volume that’s in a broken chain and cannot transmit sound? Are all attempts to detect Sean Rose’s shooter foiled because of how the window is positioned?). If you collect all 4 of these instances… the Water Tower problem becomes irrelevant and 47 becomes “The God of Snipers”.
We just have to look at the world differently…Try to “see the code”:
Guys, I’m fooling around some more in “Landslide” and the place is just leaking with “God of Sniping” spots. I have some videos I’ll be sharing soon.
But…the total abundance of these spots in Sapienza makes me wonder if maybe the map is specifically broken? Guess we’ll know when I move on to other maps.
That said, there are places that appear to be “over-conductive” to sound and getting prioritized for detection and Insta-Combat. Rocco’s Apartment (and the balconies connected to it) is particularly suspect, as well as the Tower over the Square (which cannot be used without large distractions).
There is also a distinctly hard border played by Rocco’s Apartment Door. Normally almost the entire stairwell from the Safehouse Apartment level up to just outside Rocco’s Apartment seems totally sound absorbent but becomes compromised if the door to Rocco’s Apartment is open.
That said, the two stairwell levels are pretty effective for sniping anyone in the square or inside the lawyer’s office. The only risk for any shooter is the possibility that a death in the square will trigger one (and only one) guard to search the stairwell, but if you control both the Safehouse and Rocco’s Apartment it is easy to evade. Snipe someone inside the Town Hall and Lawyer’s Office from the Apartment Stairwell and you’re virtually undetectable!
I guess that’s the end of people claiming “Landslide” isn’t a Sniper friendly map. All you have to do is to wait for Abiatti to meet Bravuomo. lol.
Another interesting case is the stairwell to the apartment and balcony overlooking the concert stage. This is the apartment where some bodyguards are hanging out. This stairwell is joined to balcony overlooking the concert stage. Both appear to be sound absorbent volumes such that it doesn’t matter that the door between them is left open.
By knocking out 3 NPC’s ,+1 NPC if you also want to take down the lady who is occupying the adjoining apartment from the building across and one level down, you can also snipe with pretty good confidence from the balcony or the stairwell into the church or outside of it with only minor risk of guards searching or roughly 50% chance of no search reaching your area at all.
As discussed with @immadummee47 I’ll probably try touring Mumbai next as that one has a possible 909 spot. But if anyone suspects some other places we should give them a go.
UPDATE: I can confirm the first sniper nest of the Kashmirian, with the exception of that nest’s balcony, is 100% Sound Absorbent. Bullet Impacts in that area are also ignored.
His second sniper nest is his actual apartment is it not?
Will do research for 909 spots and report soon Give me some days
Confirmed both the Kashmirian’s Sniper Nest and his Apartment can be turned into 909 spots.
The Kashmirian’s Apartment does attract 2 guards if used to snipe, but still the result is remarkable.
First off, it takes them too long to start searching the Chawl. Second, sometimes they really have no idea where you took the shot so they start searching every room in the Chawl and use up all their Searching Time without making progress.
Besides there’s so many escape routes in the Chawl that two guards is an easy evade.
Videos will be up very soon in the Room 909 thread.