iO, please add saving in Escalations (and Bonus Missions, Contracts etc)

[FSMcas]

A great answer with valid points, let me respond in detail.

I have watched a lot of your videos and I know how good you are in this game - how much time you’ve invested, and I can only imagine how much repetition of the ever-same things you have endured until perfection. Obviously for you this is not a problem. Then again, you are one of the top players out there - while I have limited time to play and when I get two hours in the evening I want to enjoy gameplay and not spend 90 minutes waiting and repeating the same stuff over and over because I can’t get the third target on time or without getting spotted etc.

@Frote7

@FSMcas

It is an optional feature, if you do not want to use it you do not have to

Usually not the strongest argument

But is it? People get angry when games get an easy mode because “now everyone can beat it” or “no one will learn to play correctly anymore” etc. But does this affect your enjoyment of the game? Does it change the experience for you personally?
I can only understand the pespective “If I can use an easy feature, I will use it”. Still this is a problem with your own motivation, it should not be cut from a game just to protect you from yourself.
There may be people - there surely are! - that will use an easier route than before although they would have played without it before and had great fun, maybe even more fun.
But in such a huge community there is always someone who does something, and overall the quality of life and accessability should be prio no 1.

@Frote7

@FSMcas

The design flaw of instant fail conditions that plague so many contracts could be fixed

Instant fail conditions are the problem, not being unable to save. Those conditions should simply always be optional, you wouldnt get SA if you don’t abide by them and that’s enough.

Here I am 100% on your side. We even had this conversation in another topic. Still, the current situation has a lot of insta-fail contracts and a saving option would help that. The milk has already been spilt, let’s not cry about it but get something to clean it up

@Frote7

@FSMcas

Escalations could feel more like real missions

They’re not supposed to feel like real missions. They are supposed to be pure gameplay, with gameplay twists that you won’t find in any other mode.

One the one hand, yes. I get that.
On the other hand, look at the forum. Look at reddit. Look at the community. The reaction when every new sin is nothing more than an escalation. The hype around the Garden Show and the disappointment when it became clear it will, again, be only an escalation.
They are meant to feel different. But many players, without having exact numbers I would guess it’s the mayority of the hard player base, does not want that and could get a better experience with the addition of a save system.

@Frote7

@FSMcas

and one of the reasons is the lack of freedom and experimentation because of the unability to risk or try anything without stress and the possibility of total loss of progress.

Not being able to save doesn’t stop you from experimenting. That conclusion is false.

Simply said: It already did stop me and therefore it is correct. But let me be more objective: Some people might not be annoyed by endless repetition of identical tasks, but I doubt that’s the mayority.
Of course you are correct that you can still experiment all the same. But my point is that many, many and many more escalations, contracts and bonus missions have long preparation phases. Get this item to get this disguise, with that enter that area to use some object to get another disguise, now for the target. Fail and you will have to do the beginning again - no challenge, no experiment, just repetition of already completed tasks. For an extreme example, look at the Christmas Hoarder’s mission when you try to get all the presents and kill the thieves with an explosion. I can’t remeber the exact time, but I think it was around 15 minutes of waiting. Even worse are the Sniper Maps, we had this a few days ago - Walz of Death, stare at the screen for 12 minutes doing nothing and then hope to get it right or you have to wait again. In such situations I personally don’t have the motivation to try something risky. If I could save my progress, I would feel free to try different ways, not only the safest one but maybe a fun one, a cinematic one, a dangerous one. But knowing that I had to wait 10 minutes, just waiting for the same loop to complete again, I would not risk that.

~ * ~

I respect your opinion and yes, my “there are no cons” might be a bit oversubtle. Still I think the advantages outweight the disadvantages by far. This game has, like most games, a fan base of very skilled players that don’t need any QoL changes and that might not see the need to give accessability optiopns.
But Hitman should be for everyone, and reading this thread shows that there are a lot of others who think the same way.

Maybe seperated Leaderboards with and without saving?
Maybe Pro / Master Mode for escalations, bonus missions and contracts?

I’m open for suggestions! I just hope that iO reads this and thinks about it.

[schatenjager]

It seems easy enough to solve this problem. Enable the difficulty settings for escalations and give the contract creator the ability to add “save/no save” as a complication.

Escalations are created by IOI (yes, I know sometimes they bring people in to do this, but overall, they control them). They can easily add the difficulty levels into the game for these types of missions. Added cameras (or lack of them), additional guards, etc. would all make for easily producible elements that are already coded into the game in the regular missions so there is nothing “extra” to add. Since quite a lot of players (not sure if it’s the majority but seems like it is) don’t like the escalations as the only type of game play and don’t tend to replay them, adding a save feature wouldn’t take anything away from this. Having a Master mode still allows for the competitive stuff it that’s what you’re into. If you want to test yourself, expand your skills, whatever, than just use the Master mode and don’t save.

If the contract creator has the ability to enable/disable saving in the contract that they create, that still allows the various competitive communities to create contracts that don’t have saving as an option. A contract that requires 10+ minutes of tedious waiting without saving will continue to just be a bad contract that people won’t play. You can’t really enable master or professional difficulty for a user-created contract because the creator will only have used one of those to create it in the first place. Adding extra cameras, removing them, adding guards, etc. all take away or add from the idea that the creator had in the first place. The creator should just have the option to make it a complication if they want and that takes care of the leader board issue too for those that care about that.

Elusive Targets, just for completeness’ sake, should either be made permanent contracts with difficulty modes or just not have saving and left as is.

Saving doesn’t have to be an all or nothing proposition. Put it in where it would help the player, make it optional where it makes sense to do so, and disable it completely where that is the best way to do it. To just say that “escalations can’t be saved” is too general. Some escalations should allow for it.

[FSMcas]

Very good points, thank you!

btw we have the same discussion on reddit, I’m not begging for upvoting my comment but please upvote the main thread and add your feedback there as well. Apes together strong, let us be heard!

r/HiTMAN - Not being able to save is ruining the new content for me.

[Frote7]

@FSMcas

But does this affect your enjoyment of the game? Does it change the experience for you personally?

As Hardware mentioned above, it could potentially impact how one would approach these, so yes.

@FSMcas

On the other hand, look at the forum. Look at reddit. Look at the community. The reaction when every new sin is nothing more than an escalation. The hype around the Garden Show and the disappointment when it became clear it will, again, be only an escalation.
They are meant to feel different. But many players, without having exact numbers I would guess it’s the mayority of the hard player base, does not want that

That’s more a matter of people wanting bonus missions etc instead of solely escalations, e.a another topic.

@FSMcas

could get a better experience with the addition of a save system.

Doubt. They would still be escalations, whereas people simply want other content aswell.

@FSMcas

Simply said: It already did stop me and therefore it is correct.

@FSMcas

Still this is a problem with your own motivation, it should not be cut from a game just to protect you from yourself.

@FSMcas

But my point is that many, many and many more escalations, contracts and bonus missions have long preparation phases. Get this item to get this disguise, with that enter that area to use some object to get another disguise, now for the target. Fail and you will have to do the beginning again - no challenge, no experiment, just repetition of already completed tasks

Vast majority of escalations don’t require long preparation and/or lots of waiting at all. They can all (and each step within that) be completed within minutes.

@FSMcas

For an extreme example, look at the Christmas Hoarder’s mission when you try to get all the presents and kill the thieves with an explosion. I can’t remeber the exact time, but I think it was around 15 minutes of waiting. Even worse are the Sniper Maps, we had this a few days ago - Walz of Death, stare at the screen for 12 minutes doing nothing and then hope to get it right or you have to wait again. In such situations I personally don’t have the motivation to try something risky. If I could save my progress, I would feel free to try different ways, not only the safest one but maybe a fun one, a cinematic one, a dangerous one. But knowing that I had to wait 10 minutes, just waiting for the same loop to complete again, I would not risk that.

These are very specific challenges in itself, and are not required to complete those missions. And they are a one time thing. Escalations dont have these challenges at all.

@FSMcas

This game has, like most games, a fan base of very skilled players that don’t need any QoL changes

I don’t see adding the option to save in escalations as a QoL change, more so a change that somewhat goes against the design.

@FSMcas

But Hitman should be for everyone, and reading this thread shows that there are a lot of others who think the same way.

Hence lots of different modes for different people. Hence diversity is good, making all these modes very similar to each other is not in my opinion.

[Steven_Jones]

I haven’t read any of the comments underneath the first one but I 100% agree especially since it took me an hour and a half yesterday to do the escalation silent assassin bc I had to keep restarting so I 100% back this up

[FSMcas]

I just read another nice idea on reddit: Saving during an escalation or contract will lose you one star. You chose: 5-Star-High Score or saving?

Great idea!

(Link to yet another discussion about this, it’s really getting crowded)

r/HiTMAN - İo needs to add checkpoints to esculations.

[Steven_Jones]

So it should be a punishment for saving?

I don’t like that idea, they say to us we should have the freedom to save and stuff in missions so why not in contracts or escalations

[FSMcas]

Well, I do not like the idea either and agree 100% with you, but due to some people not wanting a save system for challenge and comparison reasons (not that I agree), this would be a compromise. Personally I do not care abaout ratings, high scores or stars at all, so I’m fine with that.

[CNC]

Can always set in Practise mode and leader-board mode?.

Can save but forfeit scoreboard submission and vice-versa.
Of course unlocks can be done in both modes.

[FSMcas]

Yes, like the main game. I mean, we already had this, sort of - Master Mode only allows one save, so more or less the same discussion has already been done by the developers. As someone mentioned before, that would be problematic with contracts (because the creator cannot play simultaniously in all three or even two modes), but escalations would be great with different difficulties.

Easy - do it without cameras and lesser AI
Professional - normal mode but with saving
Purist / Master Mode - No saving, full AI

or something like that. Maybe saving only in easy mode.

[CNC]

I’m more thinking with Escalations. Contracts being bit more seperate but even then take to two modes which is leader-board and non-leader board. No nother changes. That way then the creator isn’t stuck making same contract with multiple modes.

Given Escalations are ment to be quick turn-outs I dont think they need full on diffculty modes and will likely slow priduction. Though if IO could put a difficulty indicator on the breifing or mission icon that would be good for new players

[TheCasualHitman]

At the very least, once we’ve completed all 3 escalations, allow us to choose which escalation to replay without having to reset the whole thing.

[maydaymemer]

Adding saves into them would be great because im playing thru all the featured contracts rn and it’s a pain to try to one shot them. I also think that it would be cool because then you could add complications to the contracts mode relating to the save system like limiting saves to how many the creator used or disabling saves

[1605028794]

Maybe this: once you used the saving in an escalation/contract/bonus mission, your performance will not be recorded in the leaderboard. For normal player who just what to complete it for fun, the place they have on the leaderboard doesn’t matter at all. And for speedrunner who would like to fight for a high rank they know they cannot use the saving. But saving could help them practise the very stage they are stuck in, instead of doing repeated perfect work again and again just for the last target. As for the other competitons out of the leaderboard, I suppose things like speedrun community could simply come out with a rule to ban speedrunner from saving.

[FSMcas]

As long as they count as completed to add to unlocks, yes!

(interesting username btw)

[47saso47]

@FSMcas

Contra:

• Nothing. Nothing AT ALL.

I 1000000% disagree. Saving in contracts mode should never happen because a contract should be played right through from start to finish because then you start save scumming to get the best time and that makes it easier than to play the entire thing IMO.

[TheCasualHitman]

I agree. When playing a contract, you should not be able to save. If you feel you can do better or want to try a different route, either restart or, when you have completed your initial run, replay the contract.

[ColdDayInHell]

Absolutely. Saving would ruin contracts.

I don’t think escalations need saves either. I’ve only played Sloth and just downloaded Lust (played it for a minute or so) and still don’t believe in saving in escalations. If it takes 20mins or longer, WGAF? Deal with it

[TheCasualHitman]

Yep. The only thing I ask is what I have already written which is to allow us to choose which escalation to replay after completing all 3.

[Jack_Mustang]

It would give ARMPIT the ability to scum even better times on contracts. I say no!