iO, please add saving in Escalations (and Bonus Missions, Contracts etc)

[FSMcas]

@Frote7

Make up your mind

You have a habit of quoting out of context, be it about player motivation, gameplay priority or punishment for saving…
This time: I do not like the idea of punishing saves, still IF there is really that much backlash about scoring one possible solution that I find really good would be a decrease in score.

btw, the main campaign also offers stars and scores but saving. So there it is okay while in escalations it is not? I find you fixation on competing weird, but then again it makes sense because of your speedrunning I guess. Still, you should be aware that this is not the main way this game is played for. Hitman is not an Arcade Game about High Scores.

~

@scoobywizard

The only saving in escalations that would really make sense is that in 7DS and possibly DGS because how they have extra challenges attached to them, but even still most of the challenges in the escalations so far already involve restarting the escalation.

Many escalations are quick and easy, but there are also many that require a lot of preparation and/or some difficult moments after this preparation. For example the one in Bangkok that requires you to store three targets in the freezer. Killing and storing two of them was a thing I had to repeat over, over and over just because I had several fails with the last one. If I could have saved after the second one it would have been way more fun than to re-solve the same, already competed puzzle over and over again.
That’s a nice way of putting it: A puzzle. Imagine you have to guess three questions, but if you get the third one wrong you have to answer the first two ones over and over again. Where is the fun in solving an already completed puzzle all over again? I know that especially in Hitman replaying is a thing and can be fun, but sometimes it can be tedious (feel free to quote me here on saying two contradictory things again) and for those cases it would be nice to be able to skip them. Just as the campaign does with starting disguises for example.

~

@Frote7

Also no one is forcing you to complete a contract/escalation. If i don’t enjoy a certain contract/escalation, i wouldnt spend 5 hours on it. Just skip it, it’s no big deal.

Wait a second, I see an option to quote you out of context:

@Frote7

@FSMcas

if you do not want to […] you do not have to

Usually not the strongest argument

But joke aside: Escalations are a big part of the game, now more than ever. If iO could add a feature that would make them more attractive to a lot (if not all) players, the game would offer more content for them. “Just skip it” is of course an option, but if you buy and play a game I would consider it a good thing if you could enjoy all or at least as many features as possible instead of skipping large chunks. Especially if you could simply change those from “I skip them” to “I play them” with a small addition.

~

@Frote7

Again feel that the instafails were the main issue though.

Still yes, but it’s only one of two. Instafails - and long preparation phases with risky stuff afterwards. Do you really find it to be more fun if you have to repeat several steps like getting disguises and items again and again, do you really think it would be worse if you could skip that part on repeated tries?

Have a nice week btw, I don’t want all this to sound cocky or agressive

[93-126]

@FSMcas

That’s a nice way of putting it: A puzzle. Imagine you have to guess three questions, but if you get the third one wrong you have to answer the first two ones over and over again. Where is the fun in solving an already completed puzzle all over again?

Hitman is more complex than “complete the first then move on to the second.” It’s the puzzle that is complete only when it is truly completed. You may not know your first mistake until your final step.

---

Just bringing a fresh view again; What if saving goes against the intended design? Is it good if it makes it more accessible even though it goes against the intended design?

[William1066]

@93-126

Just bringing a fresh view again; What if saving goes against the intended design? Is it good if it makes it more accessible even though it goes against the intended design?

Reminds me of the entire The Ancient Gods part 2 controversy where they also “tweaked” some parts of TAG 1 to make it have better pacing but also removed the thing that makes it interesting.

DOOM Eternal - Pacing Isn't Everything, An In-Depth Analysis

If you want to see the consequences of tweaking something even if they seem insignificant (and You Like doom) then watch this video (or only the part I linked). It might seem very different to what this is but it’s very familiar to me. I’m not saying I fully agree with no saving in escalations but really consider what would happen if it was introduced.

[FSMcas]

@93-126

@FSMcas

That’s a nice way of putting it: A puzzle. Imagine you have to guess three questions, but if you get the third one wrong you have to answer the first two ones over and over again. Where is the fun in solving an already completed puzzle all over again?

Hitman is more complex than “complete the first then move on to the second.” It’s the puzzle that is complete only when it is truly completed. You may not know your first mistake until your final step.

Sometimes that is the case, yes. Sometimes everything is tied together. In that case, you are correct. Take for example the sniper missions - no matter how much I hate the endless waiting (especially in Himmelstein), saving would break most challenges or events becausse everything happens because of everything else.
But on the other hand there are completely seperate puzzles. For example the three targets in Santa Fortuna that can (!) be three completely seperate events, but also in some escalations like the Bangkok one I mentioned before. All the stuff here is not present in every single escalation, but there are those in which it would make sense and would improve the pacing.

@William1066

Reminds me of the entire The Ancient Gods part 2 controversy where they also “tweaked” some parts of TAG 1 to make it have better pacing but also removed the thing that makes it interesting.

“Interesting” is quastionable in that regard - while they re-added some stuff they’ve patched out, they left some in and argued that their metrics showed how few people actually completed TAG1 and therefore tweaked it. The outcry came from those parts of the community that were the black belts, the best players that wanted more and more challenge. Tha vast majority though, so vast that the developers decided to act, were crushed by the sudden spike in difficulty and stopped playing.
I get your point and I was part of this debate (Doom Eternal is funnily the other of the two games I play the most next to Hitman), but here you can see the same discussion of small expert group vs huge casual player base. A whole other discussion for whom you should develop your game – and therefore a good argument for making saves optional, not forced. Like an Easy Mode and a Pusrist Mode or by using different scoring systems, as mentioned before a few times.

[Frote7]

@FSMcas

btw, the main campaign also offers stars and scores but saving. So there it is okay while in escalations it is not?

Yes. Difference being that the main missions got mission stories and tons of challenges, and often multiple within the same setup yet you can’t do them all at once, drlayafette challenge in Sapi to name 1 example.

@FSMcas

Still, you should be aware that this is not the main way this game is played for. Hitman is not an Arcade Game about High Scores.

There is no main way to play this game. This game is all about freedom of approach, that’s the beauty of it.

@FSMcas

For example the one in Bangkok that requires you to store three targets in the freezer.

That’s a 3 minute escalation.

@FSMcas

But joke aside: Escalations are a big part of the game, now more than ever. If iO could add a feature that would make them more attractive to a lot (if not all) players, the game would offer more content for them. “Just skip it” is of course an option, but if you buy and play a game I would consider it a good thing if you could enjoy all or at least as many features as possible instead of skipping large chunks. Especially if you could simply change those from “I skip them” to “I play them” with a small addition.

But i’m not saying to skip them all am i? I was talking about specific individual contracts/escalations, where that other guy spend 5+ hours on it and didnt enjoy it.

@FSMcas

Do you really find it to be more fun if you have to repeat several steps like getting disguises and items again and again, do you really think it would be worse if you could skip that part on repeated tries?

Yes.

[FSMcas]

@Frote7

often multiple within the same setup yet you can’t do them all at once

So you mean like… because you can’t do all of them in one go, you would prefer to… save your game and reload… instead of repeating all the previous steps…?

@Frote7

This game is all about freedom

like for example, the freedom to chose wether I want to challenge myself in one go or if I want to save freely and play more risky without the fear of screwing up all my progress

@Frote7

@FSMcas

For example the one in Bangkok that requires you to store three targets in the freezer.

That’s a 3 minute escalation.

(a) Three minutes on your first try? Just start it blindly, three minutes, done?
(b) Even if, maybe for a pro like you. Not the majority.
(c) And even if you are simply referring to “you only have to repeat three minutes per try”, firstly I’m not that good and took longer (especially since I play more slowly and less risky because of, well, the unability to save) and secondly repeating two or three minutes of known, already solved content is tedious, too. Especially when you have not all day time to play.

@Frote7

@FSMcas

Do you really find it to be more fun if you have to repeat several steps like getting disguises and items again and again, do you really think it would be worse if you could skip that part on repeated tries?

Yes.

Okay. Can’t argue with that. If you like repetition, wonderful for you (without sarcasm), makes sense that you are such an avid player then. But please acknowledge that others might not feel that way.

[Frote7]

@FSMcas

So you mean like…

I mean that there is a big difference between the main missions, and contracts and escalations. They are different modes.

@FSMcas

like for example,

Freedom of approach as in you could speedrun, you could play immersive/cinematic, you could play it as a shooter, or any mix or combo you like.

@FSMcas

I want to save freely and play more risky without the fear of screwing up all my progress

You got the main missions for that.

@FSMcas

(a) Three minutes on your first try? Just start it blindly, three minutes, done?
(b) Even if, maybe for a pro like you. Not the majority.
(c) And even if you are simply referring to “you only have to repeat three minutes per try”, firstly I’m not that good and took longer (especially since I play more slowly and less risky because of, well, the unability to save) and secondly repeating two or three minutes of known, already solved content is tedious, too. Especially when you have not all day time to play.

A: Yes
B: So?
C: We just have a completely different mindset

@FSMcas

But please acknowledge that others might not feel that way.

I never disregarded that. I’m simply disagreeing with adding saving to escalations, as i feel that would have an (negative) impact on how one would approach these (plus go against the intended design of these). Please acknowledge that others might not feel the same way about adding saves in escalations as you.

[Hardware]

I think this is an issue where people with an opposite mindset can’t agree. Usually when something goes against the design, it is not safe to change it without making a significant impact on the game experience.

Save addition within the contract mode and escalations will profoundly change the way people approach them, and in my opinion, it would not be for the best. As I said before, if saving had been a possibility from the start in 2016, I don’t think I would have ever been that interested in the game as much because retrying wasn’t in my nature as a gamer, but now I love that (thanks IO for making me discover this game in this way), these games are largely built around “REPETITION”.

Hitman, and the Art of Repetition

It’s like putting a limitless recoverable state in a rogue-like, it’s completety again the design. That’s why in 5 years, IO never reacted favorably to those who wanted to save in puzzle game modes, because they were not designed for that 7 years ago. Same with games like Returnal where saving is of course not an option.

[Ibbe]

I can agree with the points of those that want to save in Bonus MIssions, not Escalations and Contracts.

[schatenjager]

A couple side-thoughts regarding the conversation so far:

Saving has always been available in the main story missions but not in any other mode. At this point, for the majority of players, the main story missions are done and over with aren’t they? While there may be people still playing the core missions of the game, I think most players (at least the ones on this forum and discounting anyone who is still waiting for the game to be released on Steam), are now only playing escalations and contracts (including elusive contracts) as these are the only types of new content available.

Since IOI has essentially doubled down on escalations and elusive targets as being the only type of new content available, one of those two types of missions have developed into a different style of play than it used to be. Elusive Targets are still the same as they’ve always been but I’ll touch on those in a minute.

Escalations used to be very repetitive: Do this thing. Now do this thing again but do something else too. Now do the same thing yet again with some additional complication, etc. There were missions in the first game where you had to do the same thing 5 times. It’s been said on this very forum that the way that many players approached the game (MUST do SA/SO/etc. every single time), the 5 stage escalations were the same exact run 5 times in a row (minus maybe an additional target or two). Most of the escalation complications were things like “don’t get spotted”, “don’t get recorded”, “don’t change outfits”. SA/SO players wouldn’t do those things anyway.

Now, escalations have moved away somewhat from the repetitive “do the same thing over and over” sort of missions into a more linear story-telling sort of thing. Escalations like Satu Mare, the various Sins missions, and a few others have very little to nothing at all in common between levels. No repetition exists in these for the most part.

As escalations are now the primary mode of the game for most players, they have essentially taken the place of the core plot-driven missions. It would not harm the game play nor would it offend the more pro-level players if IOI added difficulty levels to the escalations the same way they do the main plot-driven missions. If they intend that the escalations are going to be as primary to the game and take the same amount of time (and have challenges as part of the mission) they should probably have a save feature at the lower difficulty levels. Providing a Master difficulty level with extra cameras, guards, no saving, etc. would accomplish everything that the player base seems focused on while still letting the “casuals” have their cake too.

Elusive Targets and player created contracts should probably still not allow saving for the most part. Elusive Targets should eventually be released as freely playable contracts I think and the saving discussion could be revisited at that point but until then, the whole point of the Elusive Target is that it’s a one chance, one time thing. Saving the game defeats that.

Player created contracts could easily include a complication type of “no saves” I think and that would allow creators to decide. If you don’t like saving, don’t play contracts that allow it. If you prefer to be able to save, then play those types of contracts. If the argument can be made to play or not play an escalation based on the difficulty or tediousness, then the same argument can apply to playing or not playing contracts that allow saving or don’t.

[TheChicken]

I also agree with the people who say that saving in Escalations and Contracts would trivialize and possibly make them a lot easier (and I do feel for the people who just don’t like/want to repeat the same thing over and over if they fail… but that kind of is how this Trilogy works.)

I do think there’s a special case, however, for adding saving to Longer-form content like the Lust Assignation. (and retroactively to things like Holiday Hoarders).

[FSMcas]

@schatenjager

[ … ]

(everything)

Just to add one thing: Good point with the ETs, makes sense: No saving obviously, but change them to permanent “1 Level escalations” later and allow saving then.

[schatenjager]

That’s kind of my point too. When players say “escalations” we now have to differentiate what we mean by that because there are two distinctly different types of escalation missions now.

The original escalations were complication-driven. Once you did a thing, you had to then do that same thing again, and again, etc. The only differences between levels in those early missions was the addition of a complication or extra target. They felt repetitive because they were.

Now though we’ve got escalations that don’t include repetition, or if they do it’s very minimal. 2nd and 3rd levels either start where the previous level left off (Satu Mare) or have nothing to do with the previous levels (Pride, Greed, etc.). The latest escalation (Lust) has only one level and the Garden Party sounds like it may have one re-playable level after finishing the original run-through.

These new types of escalations have different mechanics, different feels, and different game play than the older ones did and there is an argument for treating them differently than the first ones.

[Hardware]

@TheChicken

I do feel for the people who just don’t like/want to repeat the same thing over and over if they fail… but that kind of is how this Trilogy works

This is the core design of these games and what makes me play them for thousands of hours since many years now.

I agree for Longer-form content like bonus missions a recoverable state is a must. Beside, the vast majority of contracts (within the contract mode) and escalations are widely accessible and requires a couple of dozen minutes when you starts and the more you do, the easier it gets. Contracts where you can appreciate a no-save gameplay.

And for now I’m done :

Nothing left

[Count.Rushmore]

This ability can be given as optional in the Settings.
We can adjust Autosave option, same we could adjust Escalations/Contracts saves.
Those who want it, toggles it on, those who don’t care, turns it off.
Make this option off by default like Silent Assassin Tracker, and everyone is happy

[Hardware]

You didn’t read what we said above… it’s not that simple obviously, you can’t make a core design element togglable in a menu.

[Count.Rushmore]

Ok, how about Autosave then?

[Hardware]

You missed the entire point of this thread. It’s not a technical issue, IO can enable contracts and escalations saving at any time because it is already implemented, it is just an option that they have deliberately disabled BY DESIGN.

They choosed by design to disable saving in contracts mode and escalations because this is the way THEY WANT players discover these modes.

It’s like asking for a limitless save option in a game like returnal or Dark Souls, in complete opposition of the intended core design.

[Count.Rushmore]

I just express my opinion and saying how it could be done with no demanding something.
I’m pretty fine with things how they are, but I would like to have an option like this, that’s it

[BEowen]

Aren’t saves disabled in Contracts and Escalations because they are only available in online mode? That’s what i always thought. An idea i had, would be a rewind button that you can use 3 times per mission and go back a max 20 seconds