The Great Old/New Debate

I’ve been visiting Hitman threads on gaming imageboards and have been seeing this image posted pretty often. :

Today I even saw it on reddit and although it didn’t gather many likes and had almost no engagement, it shows that either the person behind the image is very stubborn about sharing his views or some people share their opinion.

Now on the left side of the image we see the representation of what “real” Hitman fans want, which is dark, moody weather, more “edge” and a darker, colder overall atmosphere.

On the right we see…the sun, which obviously means that missions take place in sunny, well lit environments, co-op characters, perhaps a poke at the co-op mode which the maker of the image seemingly dislikes or perhaps it’s the look of the characters and its stark difference to how 47 looks. Next we see an artwork from the game “Neighbours from Hell”, where you sneak into your neighbor’s apartment and play crude tricks on him by using every item near your character. Again a poke at how modern Hitman games handle some of the assassination in a similar fashion. The superman image hints at how 47 is now very much a “hero” character compared to a relatively “antihero” image of 47 in earlier games. Snowball and fish perhaps hint at a “weapons” that are a bit “out there”. The US flag one i don’t really get.

What do you think? Do you agree with any of the points? I personally think that the only thing new Hitman games lack is Kyd’s soundtrack which made the games a little “sterile”.

also a .webm video that was being posted regularly with the image is an excerpt from Blood Money Dev Diary: https://youtu.be/IxmtPH27U04
where the devs of BM talk about 47’ origins and the “antihero”, even politically incorrect nature of his character.

So, how do you view the evolution of the world of Hitman? Do you see the older games as tryhard and edgy, which admittedly was a trend in gaming at the time, or do you think modern Hitman games have lost the grittiness of the older titles?

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I need rain in my life.

i see a very simple solution to the old/new “debate”: make both bright/colorful and dark/gritty maps.

for artistic reasons, IO wants to keep it like the former. more bright/colorful to fit in with the higher-class feel of the new games.
but seeing as H2 has darker/grittier maps than 2016, i can’t see why IO wouldn’t go even darker/grittier in H3.

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I’ll always take the more serious Hitman titles over the the new ones as long as it doesn’t get too edgy. I think Blood Money nailed the balance between seriousness/goofiness so that’s how I would prefer the future Hitman games to be.
Absolution and Hitman 2018 is IO’s attempt to attract new players, having the games be more goofy/welcoming.
As for 47 being a hero? Ah so IO might also agree with the first Himan movie, that the fudging church considers him a necessary evil? C’mon.

Cayne describes 47 pretty well in one of the official Blood Money trailers:
You think he’s more than a man? I tell you he’s less. A virus. A pestilence.Who’s existence we only notice by the death it leaves behind. He kills for money, it’s that simple. That grotesque.
That’s a more fitting description of a killer, NOT a hero.

:point_right: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :point_left:

In my opinion Absolution was pretty dark but also campy. I mean 47 jumping from the explosion in a bath robe is the definition of goofy, but some parts of the game had a very thick dark essence to it, Chinatown, Strip Club, Rosewood to name a few.

I think the person who made that image should stop claiming to speak for “real Hitman players”. The “true fan” argument is one of the most infuriating things to come across in a community.

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True but the goofiness greatly overshadows the more serious bits of Absolution. I can forgive everything related with Dexter, Travis and Skurky with ease but when the damn killer sexy nuns show up… Nah.

In the modern day, many dark and sinister things hide in plain sight under broad daylight.

I think it can work if done properly.
My suggestion was to implement the goofy stuff as a specialist sector of the game’s universe.

I really don’t want a return to the grit. IO have taken the grit in the early games to its most “logical” conclusion and it ended poorly. Absolution was the teleological point of grit and a change was needed.

Don’t get me wrong there are still some rough edges to the new games tonally but that is something IO should sort out after HITMAN 3 is out and they have (hopefully) started work on another one.

Also finally I hate the the “real Hitman fan” notion. It is bullshit like a “genuine democracy” or a “true Scotsman”, it is a nonsense fallacy.

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In my book, the true Scotsman is someone that wears a kilt (commando under), carries a bagpipe, breath smells of haggis, whatever he says can’t be understood and what he talks about is all about the Loch Ness monster and golf.

Don’t forget the facepaint!

Hey @Silvereyes you are our leading authority on the subject of Scotland. Is this all true?

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the TRUE HITMAN FANS vs WHAT DEVS THINK is obviously done to get as many replies as possible, since it’s so “clickbaity” but I think other than that the image does sum up some of the differences between the classic games and the modern ones pretty well.

I kinda agree on Absolution being the grittiest game, especially how the antagonists are built up as utter human garbage, but 47’s character was at it’s coldest in Blood Money with him being very greedy and always being concerned with the amount of payment he’s going to receive. Killing random bystanders like the mailman and ultimately the whole Requiem level hint at his darker side which felt fitting and not too much of an exaggeration. That is lost in the modern games and the Agency seems a little to concerned about the greater good and bad people being punished as opposed to simply being an organization that performs high-level assassinations.

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You know, we can have “bad” targets that wouldn’t require us saving the world or avenge someone’s death…

Yes, we had targets in the past like the Fuchs brothers (terrorists) but could you imagine Diana’s briefing today for “The Bjarkov Bomb” today? :laughing:

“47, we need to destroy that lab, the fate of humanity is in your hands!”

Yeah, whatever Diana, shut up and pay me!

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Not to mention that Franz‘s Assassination was a hit arranged by Ortmeyer, who was simply getting rid of one of his partners and had he not arranged the hit, The Agency wouldn’t care about the attack.

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Exactly. It was all about the money back then… now Contract killers and the ICA apparently have morals now.

What happened to people becoming targets simply because they F’d up (Klaas Teller) to this day we don’t know if he was good or bad, just that he screwed up and he had to be put down. Cold…

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That is because most people completely ignore or have forgotten the ICA’s reasons for authorising all of Season One’s mission.

Instead people focus on how Diana rationalises the missions which is from a person who dislikes people in untouchable positions or abuse their power.

Diana’s own reasons for disliking the targets is the reason we are given because “They bad, we payed in money, you kill meanies” is a terrible motivator.

The ICA’s reasons for wanting every target dead are as follows:

Paris: While selling private government and military secrets is wrong the ICA killed IAGO because it jeopardised their standing with MI6. MI6 gave them a contract and the ICA did it to keep a business partner.

Sapienza: This one is obvious since Diana literally says the ICA would be abolished if the Ether Virus was ever complete and it is also her own reason for wanting us to kill Caruso. The only time the pragmatic and emotional motivations overlap in a main mission.

Marrakesh: Again while overthrowing a government to install a military dictatorship is wrong as is stealing from a national development is wrong they died because it affected the bottom line of an ICA affiliate.

Bangkok: A contract is a contract. Again celebrities using their status to lessen or completely avoid jail is wrong but this was just an ordinary hit. No different from Joseph Clarence really.

Colorado: This one was an ICA contract sent to kill a perceived threat to the organisation. The fact that they are all terrorists of varying morality is incidental. The whole gaggle of targets could have been a team of Penny Graves and they would have taken them out.

Hokkaido: This one was to kill a traitor, stop the distribution of ICA secrets and send a message to Providence. Again Yamazaki’s yakuza ties are incidental to the ICA’s purpose.

Patient Zero: Stopping the apocalypse. Believe it or not most ICA members probably don’t want to die from a hemorrhagic super-virus. Also everyone on Earth being dead also isn’t a boon for the “kill people” business.

Marrakesh Night: Again a normal contract, In fact Mendola is one of the very few completely innocent targets in the whole series and the only one that has a somewhat decent personality.

Sapienza Town Square: Again another innocent target although Bosco makes it really hard to empathise with him he is still a guy who has committed no crime other than being a dickhead.

Sapienza Promenade: A contract and the fact that Abiatti is a mafia crook and right-wing populist is almost incidental to the hit. I say that because Caruso’s fake motivation is based in Abiatti’s mafia ties and policies

H2: So the ICA have sided with a shadowy, sinister organisation that runs the world in secret in what seems like an attempt at dispelling the notion of the ICA as a moral organisation forever in regards to the new seasons.

Miami: The fact that the Knox family are weapons dealers and war profiteers is again wholly incidental from the ICA’s motive for the hit. Providence wanted to stop a defection the ICA sent their top agent.

Santa Fortuna: Cartels, drug production and smuggling are bad and that is obvious but the only reason we killed more Delgado clan is because they were central to the Militia’s operation routes, so they sent out the one guy with the most experience. End of.

Mumbai: Again piracy, debt slavery, Eastern terrorism and racketeering are all crimes, terrible crimes but they aren’t the reason they died. Providence wanted the next in line gone and the ICA sent out 47.

Himmelstein: Again this is a criminal underworld contract. You are working at the behest of an accomplished career criminal to help him to his lost millions.

Port of Singapore: A government contract aimed at stopping an international incident and it is the only time the ICA align with the inherently noble goal of the mission aside from Patient Zero because if there is no one left to kill that would be quite the bummer.

Siberia: Again the ICA were paid to shut down a prison committing human rights abuses. Someone paid the ICA to do it and they paid enough for them to sent 47 out to Siberia’s ass.

Every other mission (WC, Sgail, New York, Haven) isn’t an ICA sanctioned operation (save for Whittleton Creek which was instigated on false information) but Grey seems fixated on tearing down Providence and it is his sole motivation with the fact that they are bad people even if they weren’t Providence being incidental to him.

In fact Haven treats their targets as obstacles that need to be killed rather than saying their identity falsification business is bad. As is Savalas and her illegal banking schemes and general mismanagement. She was also another random obstacle to the plan and she needed to go.

And of course that isn’t getting started with the other games especially 2 which devolves into a “47 you need to save the world” plotline by the end with IO being so stupid and greedy the UN has to browbeat them to stop nuclear Armageddon.

And who can forget Blood Money a game whose final official mission has a briefing that begins with “47, the president is about to be assassinated” and given 47 still has ICA resources I assume the ICA were in on it. All of this in order to stop the creating of a clone army.

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But that’s the life of a contract killer?? The money IS the motivation. Period. (Or at least it should be)

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He did it for 'em diamonds. No diamonds, no saved president, no Smith in future Hitman games :smile:

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It’s not “The Agency” putting contracts out on people. So couldn’t it be said that ‘So&So’ is being the “Hero” and 47 is the tool by which they see these contracts being fulfilled?

Will we ever see a target that’s an upstanding citizen, a philanthropist that gives generously to things like charities, orphanages and sick/dying people - but then has a hit put out on them because they helped the wrong person? And we’re only killing this person because the Price is Right…?

Would that sate the ‘Anti-hero’ hunger of some of the fans?

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