The Politics Of Hitman


#454

11 posts were merged into an existing topic: Civilized Conversation: A Primer


#455

10 posts were split from this topic as part of general tidy up.


#462

cassidy invaded the privacy of the citizens of whittleton creek, and worked for the loominaty (providence). he’s pretty bad.


#463

Dude it is a WASPy neighbourhood those people are always peeking over the shrubs or rooting through the open houses. Cassidy is just that idea on steroids.


#464

doesn’t make him less of a dick


#465

Well of course he is a dick but being a dick doesn’t make him evil.Working for the Illuminatish does, even then they are a grey are with some shades of black to keep us guessing. He thinks he is still doing his secret service job. It is quite clear he never got over being laid off after the Morris incident. I like that about Nolan, it is like what MacArthur said “Old soldiers never die they just fade away”.


#468

If you read his bio: He’s pretty evil - he only spent five years working in Secret Service (then got fired 'cause of 47… lol) but then spent a lot more time working for a South American cartel instead.

Now he’s back in suburbia pretending to be stand up guy and bragging about his time in the academy etc while knowingly protecting a major asset for the people who puppeteer the world - who was a long time enemy of the USA.

And the part that annoys him is having to put up with Evil Grandpa chastising him.

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#469

Yep I stated that his service with providence is evil and his work with Moreno cartel was a part of it. Since it is implied before and then later confirmed that the Moreno cartel was a Providence outfit.


#470

He hath been summoned!

You’re assigning motive to my arguments, just like how Quinn did, and in an equally false manner. I’m not sexist because I don’t want Diana to talk so much. I’m not looking to seem edgy by supporting the idea of 47 going after innocent targets. I’m not trying to stifle discussion by referring to the one clear-cut time a Hitman game was about politics in the strictest sense of the word. Just because, as your retort clearly shows, you are also a proponent of the “politics is everything” idea, you seem to have the idea you can call my remark anti-intellectual, which to me sounds like a thin-layered way to call me either stupid or a bad person with an agenda to keep the conversation on an intellectually low level. While I’d like to think both claims are false, your accusation limits my choice quite effectively to these two. Nothing about that kind of subtle name calling in the forum guidelines I imagine?

The comment you quoted was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the one time politics in its most common form, to me and to many, was represented in the game, that form being elections, the thing bringing politics closer to the people. If you see politics in the rescue of a Chinese prostitute or the recovery of a golden idol or want to perform other such acrobatics during your dance please be my guest. I will not try to stifle you as you just did by telling me to GTFO, with such grandeur.

I’ve even asked Quinn, in an earlier stage of this topic, how the idea of having innocent targets in Hitman lore would equal an “alt-right simulation”. Unfortunately this was not addressed.

I’d also like to add that I can’t have been the only one to note at which points the debate became less civilized, even though you insist I’ve been trying to silence a civilized debate. Telling someone to fuck off is not civilized. It’s funny how you didn’t choose to quote that but instead picked a harmless joke. Politics, I guess?


#471

Wow, missed this in his bio. Guess Graves is the only real ‘innocent’ target we’ve got recently, and people have argued above that she deserved it for fighting with the militia (but I still think she’s just misguided, and definitely the most morally ‘clean’ target we’ve had).


#472

One thing I’ve not seen mentioned is that Freedom Fighters (Colorado) was pretty hard on satirizing left wing/antifa/etc politics and groups. That’s merely an observation; both sides of the political spectrum have fun poked at them.


#473

Really? I felt they were apolitical and were just a parody of domestic terrorist and their methods in general.


#474

I don’t really think it is, to be honest. Sean Rose is the only one who is distinctly left wing and it’s barely even mentioned in the actual mission, with most of his character being focused around his OCD. There’s also a fair amount of satirising of right wing groups in dialogue between the soldiers.


#475

I’m pointing the overall outcome of a common claim. You’re now trying to change the topic from that discussion to talk about yourself and your “motives” (an inherently unknowable concept)

See this kind of thing is the same kind of derail, rather than talk about the politics of how people view and talk about Diana - you want to change the topic to are you sexist or not? The answer is: Irrelevant, the conversation is not about you.

It’s not even close to being “the one clear-cut time” given that 47 has:

  • Prevented the use of a bio-weapon on a UN convention (Codename 47)
  • Assassinated a political assassin, and a general, inside of an embassy (Silent Assassin)
  • Assassinated a cult leader who maintains total control of an area (Silent Assassin)
  • Assassinated a warlord under UN watch (Silent Assassin)
  • Covered up the indiscretion of a senator’s son (Blood Money)
  • Prevented an assassination at a political rally (Blood Money)
  • Assassinated the Vice President of the USA, while preventing the assassination of the President of the USA (Blood Money)
  • Killed a megachurch owner and a presidential candidate (The Damnation novel)
  • Inadvertently led to the razing of a small town in the USA (Absolution)
  • Prevented the sale of a NOC list at the behest of MI-6 (HITMAN)
  • Prevented a military coup in Morocco (HITMAN)
  • Murdered the key lieutenants in an anti-corporation, anti-oligarchy militia (HITMAN & HITMAN 2)

That’s a lot of “politics” straight away, before we get into what saying “the politics of” is actually saying.

Surprising then, that you do not simply post that you meant it as a joke and want to move on - particularly given you can doubtlessly see that I just had to prune 300+ posts of various derailing nonsense, impeding the people who’d want to have some actual discussion over the topic you’re not interested in.

But wait, you are interested in it - probably would have been good not to participate in the derail then!

Though I’m not sure why you’d even bother asking about that given the alt-right support of say, the game Hatred (specifically about killing innocent people) and the many, many other conversations on that topic that you probably have seen over the years on the forum.

Particularly the obvious one I mentioned above, in that “innocent” targets reflect killing innocent people who simply depend on the police and nobody else to protect them, since they are not participating in exchange of violence. The threat of doing this to innocent people is a common tactic by the alt-right (as well as for example, The Golden One’s tendency to stream Skyrim and declare the people he’s killing are “feminists”, “marxists”, “frankfurt school student”, etc).

See how interesting the discussion actually is when it’s not being derailed?

I dunno, I just had a civilized conversation with a mutually friendly ending with someone who told me to “fuck off” - tell you what’s really not civilized though: People registering accounts on the forum specifically so they can derail threads with white nationalist bullet points, to antagonise people and make them feel unwelcome on this forum in complete contradiction to the forum guidelines.

That’s so uncivilized I can totally see why people tell them to fuck off.

But this is particularly funny following you posting a wall of text to assure you’re not sexist/etc but want no consideration or nuance in the assessment of someone else’s post.

Graves is an interesting one politically since she represents a sort of turncoat who could be read a number of ways:

  • A defector from law enforcement to help out an militia full of murderers
  • Someone who realized her work was being used for the benefit of Providence (ie covert terrorism)
  • Someone who also immediately decided to start trusting an extremely radical leader with no real background to assure than he could be trusted

They’re actually pretty well written and laid out in that if you take the initial briefing at face value they are easy to mistake for what we normally think of when we hear about militias on farms (libertarian gun nuts wanting to shoot anyone who isn’t them) - only lead by a serial bomber who happens to be an environmental terrorist.

However if you wander around and eavesdrop, you can overhear a few things like the guards talking about how whenever they have the choice, they work for a good cause (“righteous money just sits in my pocket better”), how The Boss isn’t a monster but sometimes he needs a monster (hence why he has Rose in charge), that can give you a much different view of them by the time you’re stepping over their cold bodies to get into the shelter.


#476

I am all too aware of this fact, but they are still inherently apolitical. While the individual members might have a political bias that made them join they all share one common goal. Get rid of the secret society that secretly runs the world.


#477

A lot of the dialogue actually specifically touches on the complete mess of ideologies the militia has. I think it’s a prevailing theme in Colorado, showing just how much people are willing to fight Providence.


#478

Yep that is what I said, it is literally my last sentence.


#479

They have some pretty clear shared values, by virtue of the manner in which they want to get rid of that secret society:

  • They’re anti-authoritarian, to the extent of supporting cold blooded murder for political change (Ezra Berg basically refuses to be contrained by rules)
  • They’re opposed to general oligarchy (given the nature of their targets and their backgrounds, Rose is a ecoterrorist, Parvarti was a pirate and a sessionist, Berg and Graves both turned their backs on big organizations)
  • They’re inherently supportive of inclusive approaches (Parvati is a disable brown woman, nobody holds that against her or talks shit about it, but Graves is suspicious for being recent government employ)

There really is no such thing as an apolitical group.


#480

The main thing I remember taking away from that mission in terms of satire was the fact Donald Trump was actually mentioned and they were making fun of him. There wasn’t any satire of the things you mention.


#483

I only meant in the ultra-reductive black and whit system people use these days.

I can’t help but feel as though you effectively repeat your same point twice in the first and second by stating they oppose political ideologies you just changed the two when neither can be mutually exclusive. Also guard dialogue makes it known that Berg was hired by the SC to work for him if I recall correctly (which I might not) and Graves just disliked that her system she believed in was broken, she cared not for the root source, just that her system was broken and she was ignored (the game never states corruption by money). Also the level is not predicated on politics it is on methodology and how we justify Utopian ideals.

Also your last point is false and you contradict yourself they include Pavarti wholeheartedly yet exclude Graves even though if she REALLY wanted to Graves cold have dobbed them all to Interpol in a heartbeat.(she even lead the taskforce against Rose) Also Berg vehemently dislikes Sean simply for being a psycho extremist and guards think Berg is a disturbed creep simply due to his mask and his use of chemical torture.

This will be my only post on the subject (I hope, I don’t take these confrontations well) I don’t want to debate the political ideologies of a fictional terrorist groups. Politics should only be used as an impetus for a hit in game not the basis for the game itself.