Fast Times at Vegan High

If ya’ll value life so much, go vegan :nerd_face:

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You can be vegan and get hit by a car tomorrow or you can eat meat and smoke like a chimney your entire life and live to 100 years, it makes no difference, sooner or later, you’re dead. It’s all luck and fate.

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Such an omni take to think I was referring to their life lol. Sorry but thats just funny

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Explain that to the plants condemned to die from such a lifestyle. That’s another one of the outcomes stemming from the universe’s fundamental flaw: nothing can exist without causing something else to cease to exist. Whether you’re a vegan, a carnivore, or omni, you are killing something by your act of consuming sustenance. There’s no avoiding it, whether it’s a plant, an animal, a fungus, or anything else, something must die for you to live. And if we cared about the preservation of life so much that we all just stopped eating altogether, all we’d achieve is mass death. It’s an inescapable suckfest.

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Plants have feelings! Evil vegans!

You dont need to explain anything to plants. They are not conscious.

Yeah, they do, actually. Not quite like us, but the notion that nature is animals moving around while plants are just here inert parts of the scenery is overlooked by the vast majority of humanity. They have their own drive for existence and survival, and actually feel pain when we cause damage to them. So many vegans and vegetarians who are dedicated to not eating anything “with a face,” conveniently ignore that reality, and have no problem with mass slaughter of… victims in a vegetative state. :rofl:

Plants do not feel pain.

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Plants right now:
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I, for one, cannot wait for the long and protracted veganism debate that will see @Heisenberg write several essays sidetracking the thread. Thanks for kicking it off, @pissfloyd, you’ve done us all a solid.

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Okay bro, lets say for a minute plants do feel pain. Even though they dont but whatever. What do you think the animals we raise eat? If you care about plants feeling pain, go vegan

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It is a therapeutic approach to make us appreciate our mortality, that this can’t go on forever. :wink:

What if there were objective reasons to hate infinite existence as much as finite existence, and we happen to be mortal so we can look forward to an end to this suffering?

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They may not have a nervous system like ours to indicate feeling pain in the normal manner, but then again, neither does a jellyfish. Plants detect when they’ve sustained damage; from the human perspective, that is what sensing pain is.

That makes absolutely no sense. By going vegan, you’re eating plants. Why would that help if someone cares about plants feeling pain? And for the record, I never said I cared if they do, I only pointed out that they do. I’m ok with destroying plant life for survival, the same way I’m ok with destroying animal life for survival; I just dislike unnecessary death or suffering. Killing other lifeforms to eat or make goods out of is perfectly acceptable to me.

The only reason to hate infinite existence is if only we are infinite and everything else around us is finite, because then we wouldn’t have anything to hold onto. When I originally posted in this thread last week, I pointed out that I don’t just wish for an eternal existence for myself, but for almost everything and everyone else. That the universe stays as it is, with just enough changing to keep everything from becoming stagnant and tumorous, but existence never ending, each day not having to be concerned with there not being another after.

The reason the thought of eternal or infinite existence isn’t appealing to some is primarily because of the factors of suffering and boredom, but I’ve covered that too. Unless there’s an afterlife of eternal punishment (a relatively modern concept of Western society that isn’t actually in the original religious texts that such ideas are based on), then any suffering we experience in an eternal existence would be only temporary. Physical ailments would eventually be able to be cured, and people able to forget about the pain they experienced over time, and if other people were the ones causing suffering, although existence in this scenario is eternal, the fact that some things would still change in at least a cyclic manner means that no one could keep up causing someone to suffer forever; something would change enough to bring that situation to an end, likely by interference from another person.

As for the issue of boredom, I covered that too. In this scenario, human brains would not grow accustomed to the release of endorphins and other chemicals that cause pleasure and happiness when exposed to certain stimuli, so we would never grow bored from living eternally; we could do the same things every single day without end, but it would never bother us, because every time it would feel as exciting as the first time. Of course, we likely would not limit ourselves to doing the same things every day, but it could work.

Now, the only reason why I’ve limited the answers to the questions of eternal suffering and boredom to these is because we lack the capacity to properly describe an eternal life with some changes and not others, because we’re fundamentally used to defining our existence by constant changes until an inevitable end. So if what I said above seems full of holes, that’s why; I can envision at a base level how I would want to have such a world be, but I can’t describe it in the necessary details to account for everything that would be needed to make it ideal.

Either way, this is also why I’d be relieved at an afterlife that was spiritual in nature and not physical, but that my consciousness and sense of self was intact, because such an existence not being chemically based means that the onset of boredom in a “heaven” would not be a factor, because there’s no body and no chemicals to become accustomed to when experiencing emotion, so there would be no boredom of being in the afterlife and/or the presence of a deity. An eternity in heaven would be something to look forward to, and we’d be able to actually look back on our mortal lives like they really meant something.

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Bold of you to make that wish, unable to imagine that people could be serious that they don’t want to live forever or at least don’t wish to share eternity with other eternal beings that turn out to be dickheads after a couple centuries.

The stuff about “people will change to the better to align to the new situation” is the typical breaking point of utopias. Ignoring the fact that you would force people to be eternal, pick any percentage where that will work for people and tell me what the place of the rest is. That usually tells the best what your ideas are worth for human kind.

We could also do this: Eat anything, plant or animal, but always wait for it to drop dead of old age before that. I bet there is a term for that. :grin:

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Pain is a sensation that’s very unpleasant. Since plants don’t feel anything, they can’t feel pain. Reacting to stimuli is not the same.

It makes alot of sense if you apply some thought to it. Animals need food to be raised. We produce a massive amount of crops for that purpose. It’s much more efficient to just eat plant foods directly.

But that’s the thing. It is unnecessary to eat animals and their secretions. I haven’t done so for years. If you care about suffering maybe don’t support the industry that’s literally all death and destruction my friend.

I feel the need to add this question on. You have dogs right? Would you equate them to carrots and beans or does that logic only apply to typical farmed animals?

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I see that this thread is going places, just not the right ones :upside_down_face:

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You’re still looking at that from the perspective of a limited existence. Because the scenario I described would include fundamental altering of the current processes of existence, a lot of the conditions that lead to people being dickheads would no longer be the case. There would be no more struggle for resources, no more need to push the boundaries of thrills further and further, so people would not need to victimize others for either of those reasons, so the conditions that cause a lot of our social ills would be gone. Those in a situation that is unfavorable would eventually be corrected and they’d be able to enjoy the rest of existence the same as everyone else. Even if there were to be centuries of having to deal with some of the problems we still face now, what would a few centuries be to an actual eternity ahead. Nobody would have any desire for existence to end once everyone is able to experience only what we see as the positives of life and none of the negatives.

And again, that’s just the surface level explanation. I can’t adequately answer your question because I’m still unable to properly envision such a world in full. But basically, to put it in the simplest terms: if I’m making a scenario where everything just suddenly, magically lives forever, then I’m also making it where nobody wants it to end anymore anyway.

We describe pain as unpleasant, and so we associate that with the word, but pain is inherently the sensing of damage to one’s body. Plants feel that. Plants feel the heat of the sun, they feel when water is pouring on them, they feel when insects are on them; how do you think carnivorous plants like the Venus flytrap know when to strike? And I said, they don’t feel it in the way we do, but again, another example is a jellyfish. You can also apply it to many insects. Just because they don’t feel a sensation that makes them go “ouch!” doesn’t mean they are not experiencing their own version of pain. It is a narrow perspective that only organisms with a bran and nerves can feel pain; that’s just how we feel pain.

Here’s a quote describing what I’m walking about

“For some researchers, evidence of these complex communication systems — emitting noises via gas when in distress — signals that plants can feel some type of pain. Others argue that there cannot be pain without a brain and nervous system to register the feeling. But before you rethink your veggie medley, know that you’re not engaging in any botanical torture because these plants are likely not experiencing pain like land animals, sea creatures or other animals.”

and here’s the link to the article.

You’re still not making sense. You said if I care about plants feeling pain, go vegan. What does that have to do with feeding animals or growing crops for them? It sounds like what you meant was if I care about animals feeling pain, go vegan, but what you said was plants. So you’re saying that if I care about plants feeling pain, kill and eat them. That makes no sense.

The industry might be awful, but so are all industries. Just because they are mistreating animals doesn’t mean that animals should not be eaten. Humans do not get the full benefit of diet from just eating plants alone; we evolved with meat in our diet and our bodies crave it. Has it gone overboard? Certainly. Are animals mistreated to be raised as food? Absolutely. That’s not going to stop me from eating animals, that just makes me want to kill more humans.

I absolutely distinguish domesticated animals from non-domesticated. That should not imply that I am ok with any form of animal mistreatment, either through abuse or neglect, but one group’s mistreatment will evoke a much stronger emotional response in me than the other. You show me someone carving up a tree, starving a crocodile, or beating a dog, my first priority would be to save the dog, because my experiences have conditioned me to react with rage and hate when that particular animal is in distress. However, I would then immediately rush to the aid of the crocodile once the dog is safe, and then after that deal with the person damaging the tree without cause.

That being said, philosophically and intellectually, I can’t condone a preference over the consumption of plant life over animal life simply because they are more similar to me and I can emotionally bond with them. While I would obviously refrain from eating a dog if I could help it, the fact that I can’t help having to eat something alive to sustain my own life means there’s no set sanctity to it. And so long as I’m not as emotionally invested in some animals any more than I am for plants, then those are the ones on the menu. They are living biological organisms whom I consume to fuel my own biological processes, just like every other biological organism on this planet does. I just don’t want them to suffer beforehand.

Yeah okay, so you try to describe just fiction, not an ideal world for us today, I see.

In the end, you could make it easy for you and just describe an scenario where everything is like today, but nobody wishes to live eternally. :wink:

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So you post an article that agrees with what I’m saying? Plants react to stimuli, they don’t feel pain. Yes, I agree with that.

Hey, you’re the one who said you dislike unnecessary death and suffering. So why support it.

Sorry, but that’s a myth friend. Humans can absolutely live on a pure plant diet and be very healthy. It supports all nutrients and vitamins we need. The only “problem” is vitamin B12, but that’s more to do with our sanitary way of living in the modern day vs plant vs meat. It’s solved simply by taking a supplement (like we give to farm animals too) or eating B12 fortified food.
Lots of scientific literature actually points toward a full plant based diet to be highly beneficial to human health and longevity. It helps in areas such as cardiovascular disease (no.1 killer), type 2 diabetes and certain cancer plus lots of other things. :+1:

I see you have great difficulty to understand that animals also eat plants and that it’s an inefficient way to produce food. Sorry, but I’m not sure I can explain it to you any further.

This clears things up. It just weirds me out.

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Ye this is my idea of fun lmao

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Defeats the whole purpose, and of course I’m describing a fiction; we can’t actually make a world like the one I described. I simply stated that that would be my ideal world if there really was no afterlife, and since everyone gets to enjoy it equally, there’s no reason for anyone to want to die in it.

If we’re going off of a scenario where there is no avoiding death but nobody is afraid of dying, then there’d be no reason for life to begin with. I’d just wish for the universe to have never come into existence at all. If death is truly the end, you’re not aware of having existed once you’re dead, and nobody has a problem with that anyway, same difference if none of us ever existed at all.

Good job picking and choosing which points to pay attention to. It clearly states that plants may not feel things in the way we do, but they do still feel it. Your basic premise, that plants don’t feel things, is wrong. To what degree, we can debate on that all year, but not the basic fact that they can in the first place.

I don’t support it, and I stated that plainly. I support the eating of animals; I do not support the conditions in which they are bred, raised, and treated in preparation for that. Two different things. I am also against killing animals for entertainment purposes. Killing an animal is sometimes necessary, and eating them is also necessary.

No, that’s not a myth, and you didn’t listen to what I said. I said humans do not get the full benefit of a diet consisting of only plants. I did not say humans can’t live on or be healthy with it. It is just not the full spectrum of nutrition that we need. You even confirm as such with what you said about taking supplements. If you have to take supplements or eat specially refined food, then you’re not getting the full benefit off of just plants, are you? A mouthful of meat from a healthy animal can carry as much as a hundred times the nutrition as, say, a belly full of lettuce. Now, I will admit that humans have been able to extend the variety of consumable plant matter to such a diverse degree that the difference can be made up, but with the decline in nutritional returns from farmed vegetables around the world in recent decades, who knows how long that may be the case.

What you’re not explaining is how that avoids causing plants pain. Whether we have animals eat them or do it ourselves directly, it doesn’t avoid anything of the sort. But never mind it, I don’t think you mean it in the way it’s coming out, so let’s skip that one. In any event, let’s set the issue of pain aside and just look at life itself. Plants are alive, they are living, active organisms that eat, drink, reproduce, and defend themselves from threats (bark, thorns and poison are examples of this); they are every bit as alive as animals. If one is going to argue a vegan lifestyle as an alternative for preserving life, they are doing no such thing. Living organisms are still dying for us to feed ourselves.

Don’t see why. While I don’t think a puppy’s life is more valuable or important than, say, a lobster’s, I’m gonna a have a harder time dipping that puppy’s flesh into butter sauce after it expresses excitement at seeing me and affection for my being in its life, as opposed to the lobster who will try to snap my finger off when I’m trying to help it out of a trap. I understand why it’s doing it, I hold no ill will toward it for doing it, and I feel bad for what comes next, but all the same, I’m hungry, and if there’s nothing else around but it and the puppy, it’s going into the pot. Although, i wouldn’t put it in while it’s still alive like some sadists do. I’d end it fast and likely painless for the poor thing first.

Now, I have a feeling that at this point we really are going off topic and more into animal rights and dietary preferences territory, and I think we have other topics for that. Let’s continue this part of the discussion elsewhere if you wish to continue it. Getting back to our own personal mortality…