well if it is a minor change ala the boots change i think that’d be better. because it’s weird to have one suit that is exactly the same as a disguise, when it was two that were the same it was less weird. plus i think we unlock these suits for the holistic look rather than for the boot color
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I really don’t see anything weird in a suit being visually the same as it’s disguise counterpart. And no, if I want a disguise as a suit unlock, I want it to look exactly the same, any change has the potential to ruin the look. Super Fan with white gloves or boots, or any color change for that matter would be ruined.
Three reasons why this is a bad idea:
- It invites inconsistency to the game. Having a suit look like an already-existing disguise just open the floodgates for players to suggest other suits that look cool but are restricted because they are disguises normally. If the developers established rules on how they do unlocks early on, they probably shouldn’t break those rules later on, especially for the sakes of a cheap unlock opportunity.
- It’s bad form to do so. I know that sounds a bit toothless to say, but it’s just bad form to take a disguise and then convert it into a suit. To be honest, it’s quite lazy. The least the developers could do is view the original disguise as a template, and get creative to make it evoke the same theme, while also retaining the same general style and flair.
- It causes confusion. You generally want to avoid that among players. The more confusion among players you make between the two (the two being in contracts mode, for example), the more it becomes a problem in the fanbase, and it breeds ambiguity, as it has to be repeatedly cleared up. That just shouldn’t need to happen. This is precisely why the Cashmerian was created in H2 to look similar to the disguise of the Kashmerian, but not have all its notable features (No hat or sunglasses). They made it distinct while having the same style, and they pretty much nailed that.
I’ve said this all before, but maybe if I repeat it for the seventh time…
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I have to say, I think there is a reason you have to repeat these arguments, because they are all incredibly weak.
1 - Basically the players might ask for more disguises to be made into suits, and the devs will do what they always did, and maybe fulfill some of those requests. So really a non-issue that is somehow being presented as a problem.
2 - The reason people want a suit to look exactly the same as a disguise is because they like that precise look, so instead of trying to be “creative” (By changing the color/adding a random detail) they could just give the players what they want.
3 - I know stupid people exist, but I really don’t see that as a good reason to go against explicit wishes of your fanbase when giving new unlocks.
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I don’t think any of my arguments in the previous comment were weak. What makes my comments weak then? Were they ad hominem attacks? No. Were they moving goalposts, or misrepresenting the argument. No, they were neither of these things. What calling an argument weak does, is try and discredit one side to add false weight to another, and is actually kind of insulting to the person on the other side of the debate, as it implies you don’t want to take any response in good faith, or even consider other possibilities.
And the only person that appears to want the disguise and suit to look identical is…well… you. In fact, this entire discussion has an air of selfishness about it, in that any change would somehow taint it and that it should never be altered. I’m gonna level with you, I don’t think most players would even care if the suits were recoloured to differentiate them between their disguises. When the blue flamingo suit was added in H2, IO pointed out they had to recolor it to purple, to avoid confusion for the pink flamingo disguise. I don’t recall any mass uproar about this decision, let-alone a small uproar. And that disguise is probably one of the most iconic disguises in Hitman. Sure, the flamingo disguise is pink, and the suit based on it is purple, but it otherwise has the same look and style, and that’s what mattered to most people.
I think people need to realize that most players don’t actually care if something gets altered, especially if it has a good reason to. And a suit looking identical to a disguise certainly qualifies as a good reason, if nothing else but it’s a pretty logical move to make on their end, they’ve used that same rationale before, and nobody called them out on it.
The developers choosing suit unlocks that were originally disguises is not an issue by itself; the issue stems from them not customizing the items to make them distinct from the thing they’re blatantly copying. That’s…not a non-issue. Of course, nobody can stop players from suggesting these sorts of suits either, but IO can certainly be more choosy and stick to their own rules on disguise inspirations, irrespective of popularity of the idea. This also applies to other community suggested items we’ve had, such as the Durian (which just exacerbates an already-problematic meta) and the Pinot Noir bottle, the latter legitimately confused people as to why it was selected, as it was so mundane and useless. Just because an idea is popular does not make it good to have in the game.
It’s not that stupid people exist, it’s a contingency the devs should stick to, in order to prevent future or further confusion. And even then, calling these people stupid is missing the point. If I wasn’t so well-versed in Hitman logic, I too would probably be quite confused about a suit and a disguise looking the same but acting differently in one level.
And the people who wanted these as unlocks are a small minority of players. If we were talking about Offline Mode or escalations being made available offline, sure I’d agree with you here. But we’re not.
TL;DR: Directly importing suit unlocks is problematic, people won’t care if it gets recoloured, and it’s a small minority who do care about this sort of thing anyway.
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i want to second this, other than i think that a recolor/retexture/rework goes too far when for example with the white shadow, the cashmirian, etc. Because people still want the original ninja disguise, the original kashmirian suit etc. because there are elements from the original that you still dont get from the reunlock. whereas the flamingo suit is a perfect recolor
but i definitely think you should be able to tell when a disguise and suit are different, even if it’s just a minor detail. because the distinction between different suits and disguises and between even suits and other suits is an important part of the gameplay systems and ppl need to know about this as they play, no ambiguity
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I called your arguments weak because they are weak, that’s all there is to it.
My post has 13 likes, so I’m not completely alone in this, even though you want to misinterpret it that way. Now, I’m not saying you are completely alone in your line of thought either, but the important takeaway is that most of the players don’t care either way, so for them identical suits or recolors are fine, so I don’t think bringing in indifferent people who don’t care either way into the argument is productive.
Also, calling me selfish is kinda ironic, as your desire for every unlock to be a recolor is genuinely the first time ever I saw someone specifically advocate for all unlocks to be recolors, and as someone who occasionally browses other Hitman communities like the one on reddit, I have never seen someone be confused about identical disguises and contracts mode, and people there still ask, to this day, which version of Woa will give them all content, so I think it’s safe to say it’s not because the subreddit is full of geniuses.
I called your arguments weak because they are weak, that’s all there is to it.
Repeating that my arguments are weak without actually clarifying why they’re weak does not make my arguments weak.
My post has 13 likes,
Threads being liked happens way more frequently, and I suspect a lot of these likes are to do with people realizing that this suit was changed, not the fact it’s popular and people agree with you on anything you’ve said. It’s also possible people like the change and are just hearting this thread so they can find it again. There’s multiple reasons, not just one.
so I don’t think bringing in indifferent people who don’t care either way into the argument is productive.
But they’re an example of a part of the userbase? It’d be remiss of me to not mention that subsection? Calling my arguments weak is less productive than anything I’ve said on here, so I’ve no idea how you came to the conclusion that mentioning that most people don’t care is unproductive.
I didn’t say that. I said that suits based on disguises should be altered or recoloured. My point was not that “all unlocks should be recolours”, it’s that “all cosmetic unlocks should be distinct from disguises”.
I have never seen someone be confused about identical disguises and contracts mode
Again, you’re missing the point. The possibility of confusion should not arise in-game.
people there still ask, to this day, which version of Woa will give them all content
Most of those posts comes from newcomers (or those acting in place of one), not those who are already on /r/Hitman. Same goes for the discord actually.
I wouldn’t use that as an example, considering the people who make those posts won’t have any point of reference for why suits being identical to disguises is probelmatic.
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I already explained why your argument is weak in my initial post, with the 3 points below it. However, you chose to interpret it as me trying to discredit your argument, to lift my own, despite me explaining why I think it was a weak argument. The initial comment itself was because I was baffled at your reasonings and apparent surprise not many are loudly supporting you.
The indifferent audience is not a productive argument, as in their indifference, they could get an identical suit, and not care, same thing if they got a recolor. If an argument is whether a disguise should be identical, or a recolor, people who don’t care either way are not going to be useful in resolving that.
That’s all I really have to say about this. And while I won’t say I never agree with you, because that would be untrue, I do often find the things you think are a problem, and your thoughts on them bizarre, to say the least, and it gives a very pseudo-intellectual who thinks they’re always right vibe about you. Maybe you could work on that, but I have a feeling you’ll just say I’m insulting you to prop up my own argument, but alas, it is what it is.
Reason for the different boot colors: to help players differentiate between the suit and the in mission disguise. Granted, they will have to make a mental note of this if they need to keep track for some reason… Such as a troll contract where both suits/disguises are required for different targets. IOI has an obligation to make this differentiation.
PD Suit: enter the Sapienza church. You’re not trespassing (this was how it was when it came out - so I’ll assume this is still the case).
PD obtained from the level: enter the Sapienza church. You are now trespassing.
This would be another way to differentiate them. Or being able to trigger the EE.
You’ll just have to come to terms with reality and IOI’s valid intentions for making the 2 suits different.
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If I were right all the time, I wouldn’t be here. Hell, in the past two days I was wrong about something (the reasoning behind the twitch coin being delayed; I thought it was due to server timings, but nope, it really is just a bug on the server).
Considering you also said the following in the later comment:
You can kinda see how I got confused.
And no, your three points did not explain how my arguments were weak. To me at least, they read like responses to my own reasoning, which is fine. But none of them actually touch on anything above that.
Firstly, I am actually working on that. I am aware of how my straight-to-the-point and hard-line stance on topics can come off as standoffish and argumentative on forums. I tend to be self-aware enough of my own behaviour and resolve to make periodic changes to my own faults to make myself a better person to be around.
Secondly, stop trying to bait me into insulting you. I’m not falling for it.
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I wasn’t going to respond any further as my position is firm and I believe in it, but I just wanted to assure you I was not trying to bait you into insulting me, so I can proceed to play the victim, as again, I still stand behind my stance 100%.
My primary problem is that they weren’t transparent about this change. This just shows they are willing to make changes that could potentially affect the gameplay in the future, while pretending they did nothing.
I can give it a pass this time, because I actually slightly prefer black boots over the brown ones, but the practice of silent changes needs to stop. I want to say that I don’t mind the differences in their function, just their visual identity.
However, ioi are not obligated to change the starting suits in any way. People being confused is unlikely to happen. Many people don’t play featured contracts, or play them rarely. There is also only one mission Plague Doctor (Main Sapienza mission) and Super Fan (Patient Zero Sapienza) appear, making the chance of this happening very low.
Not to forget, that if the player thinks Plague Doctor suit is the same as the disguise, they will try to use it for that purpose regardless, as the robes will likely obscure the boots most of the time. They will probably not realize the suit is visually any different before they make this one time mistake.
What I really want to say, even if the players make this mistake once, it’s fine, they’ll know better next time. It’s strange that you think ioi needs to do this, because it infantilizes the playerbase, and makes it seem that a big part of it are people who have 30 iq and a long term memory of a goldfish (I know that the 3 second memory thing is a myth, buy many people still believe it)
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It’s a bit of a stretch to say that these minor cosmetic changes means they’ll make silent gameplay-changes in the future. You’re basically making a slippery slope argument here. Don’t get me wrong, we do tend to get crappy communication (though credit to the team, they are improving), but It’d be a very bad idea to alter the games’ mechanics without telling people. When S/A rules got changed in H2 (twice, actually), they informed people of that, so i’m not sure where this fear stems from exactly.
Well that’s all right then!
That possibility shouldn’t exist to begin with! That’s the point!
The developers should take care of their game to avoid these possibilities, however niche, because it can become a problem later on. A developer taking care of their game is not infantilizing their user base, it’s the basic standard, and the developers taking action on any problematic aspect of the game, would show that they’re on top of problems and are willing to solve them. It is madness to suggest that the developers working on their game so everything remains consistent with their past unlocks and rules would coddle their userbase.
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Plague Doctor Suit, not trespassing.
Plague Doctor (Disguise), trespassing.
I’m curious as to why the OPs pics don’t have the correct name for the suit variant.
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There’s 2 possibilities, either it’s another silent change, perhaps done recently, or maybe it’s a version difference, since I have the Epic Games version. I guess I’ll play the game later to see if anything changed.
Everything is still the same, so I guess Epic Games version is just different in that way. Kinda like how only the ps5 version still has the bug where the saving hud element is constantly on the screen.
I am playing on Epic.
Although I’m starting to wonder if the specific name/label is due to a mod. It even renamed the Ancestral Pistol to Krugermeier 2-2 Ancestral.
Yeah, I think it’s because of a mod. I play through Geforce Now (Cloud gaming) and modding is not available for majority of games there, including Hitman Woa.
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your post has 13 likes partly because it was a scoop that they changed the boots. that’s a bit of a fallacy to say that everyone liked it because they agreed with you that the disguise shouldnt have been changed, you could just as easily say they liked it because they AGREE with the change
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