Undocumented change to Plague Doctor starting suit

[Dribbleondo]

Okay…what did I miss when I was bagged and gowned?

@AnthonyFuller

The 3.70 patch added the Summer Sightseeing Suit with Gloves which replaced the previous reward, this was not acknowledged in the patch notes (or at any other point as far as I know).

I have a feeling this was done to keep it consistent with similar unlocks (I.E the ET suits). Though I’m not a huge fan of the driving gloves on that suit, so I do think it is a bit of a downgrade.

@HitmanDoctor

because nobody had any problems with the suit for over 4 months, despite some people expressing their concerns about it.

That is very paradoxical logic there (say that five times fast!). So people didn’t have issues with it…but people did have concerns about it? I’d say this is fallacious, but that’s kinda defeating your own argument, no?

Also, as it should be obvious by reading this thread, there are players who didn’t like these disguises being made into suits in the first place and continually raised the point of player confusion. Both me and Urben have attested as such, and probably other people too.

@HitmanDoctor

We get spelling mistakes being fixed as part of the patch notes, suit alterations definitely seem like a more important thing than that, so we should be made aware of them.

I agree with this, and I will admit it’s a little weird IO didn’t comment on the summer sightseeing suit being changed. I don’t think such a minor change like this would need mentioning (Boots are not gonna help with player identification, the whole suit needs to be altered in some way)

Then again, this applies to the patch-notes in general, as we get really should be getting more details on fixes, Allan!

@Grim47

but you didnt get anything despite being less known in the community and less beloved and also just being wrong…

…i hope whoever gave drib a ban really felt like they earned their 0$/hr, as if there’s any response to “I got 13 likes therefore I should be listened to” other than “you’re fucking nuts”

I appreciate the back-up, but I can defend myself as-and-when I get the chance to. Your comment later on is precisely why I dislike people going to bat for me. It distracts from the conversation, breeds unnecessary hatred, and acts as a catalyst for witch-hunting of people. And it gets quite silly when you learn it’s a tiny issue about suit boots being incorrect colours.

I also do not like the implication that I should be treated differently because I’m more well-known and beloved. I should not be treated any differently by the mod team, players, or other people. I get the temptation to defend a more famous person, but I seldom need it. I’d rather use that power to divert attention to problems with the game, rather than at me in a forum argument.

We also do not need to bait the mods. That’s not helpful or productive in discussions.

@Floople

Also, also, let’s not forget the whole sunglasses thing during the Season of the Disruptor.

I am somewhat convinced these recent…uh…changes, are down to the QA team being rushed. Think about it. We’ve got at least one spelling error per patch on item descriptions, and something random always breaks in the game. Hell, Sapienza was unplayable for a whole patch offline due to the change in entitlements and nobody bothering to check the consequences of their own actions.

@Floople

I don’t think those boots are used in any other outfits.

I don’t think they’re used anywhere else, since these are linkedPrims (the format of models from 2016 that IO sort-of moved away from beginning from Hitman 2).

EDIT: Just has a look, and they are used on the Superfan.

@Urben

It being as it is now is confusing in contract mode, I agree with Dribbleondo on that. But the boots being recolored has pretty much no positive effect for any position someone would side with in here.

As I said above, the suits would need more visible changes (as you rightly said, the thumbnail for the suit doesn’t look any different to the disguise).

@HitmanDoctor

Me and grim are right, and you’re wrong. Instead of denying this, you should agree, otherwise you will not grow as a person.”

My message was more “holding onto this opinion as tightly as you are in the face of conflicting evidence is a bit pointless”. Also, that summary lost a lot of nuance I was getting across.

@HitmanDoctor

Any suit variant that has a visually identical disguise counterpart would have suit at the end of it’s name.

Completely agree. This should be consistent among platforms, though oddly isn’t. Not sure what’s up with that.

When in the suit selection menu, below the suits description, this message should appear:

“NOTE: While this suit has a visually identical disguise counterpart, it does not have any of it’s beneficial/detrimental effects. It provides the same level of access as other suits.”

I don’t think that’s a satisfying solution, in part because of what Urben says later (players tend to ignore such information unless it’s front-and-centre).

I do think the White Shadow would benefit from having a similar note as well, so people are not caught by surprise when everyone is hostile on Hokkaido.

I would agree, though added to the suits’ proper description, rather than as an add-on.

@HitmanDoctor

That said, they could have a red text appear on the ui, for select suits with the following message “See details for important suit info.”

That seems very much like a band-aid to the problem, and I personally find that to be a bit tacky and inconsistent with IO’s other visual design elements for their menu’s.

This does kind of make me think of Fall Guys’ cosmetic system, which does have info tags like this, when, say, a pattern affects a cosmetic. But those are usually out of the way, and were actually added fairly recently after player requests. The difference, of course, is that Fall Guys has always done those kinds of cosmetics that have extra features, Hitman hasn’t, and the closest prior to this would be the ninja suits (and those have their own confusion due to Ninja Rules not being elaborated on in-game).

This also might lead to devs using the tag as the justifying factor in making more suits that are direct imports of disguises, because that little tag will tell you the difference, and I’m not a big superfan of that possibility either.

@Urben

ICA Agent Biker disguises do not count as regular biker disguises, making challenges and contracts with the biker disguise tricky.

I legitimately did not know this. That’s good to know, thanks =)

@HitmanDoctor

There was a 2nd part as well where he was ranting about how he hates when people use logical fallacies against his arguments, because I guess in his mind he can never be wrong.

I’m not sure how the second part works with the first. Using a logical fallacy against anyone is bad, and is not really relevant to if I think I’m never wrong. I’m not calling out your logical fallacies because I need to assert that I’m right all the time, I’m calling out your logical fallacies because it’s the right thing to do, and it keeps the discussion healthy. Avoid the fallacies, folks! Tempting as they are to use them, it’s only useful in appearing more knowledgeable, or to distract from the real arguments being made.

TVTropes has a decent list of logical fallacies, if anyone wants to read up on them.

Let me be clear to everyone: I am not right all the time, and I’m usually quite happy when I am wrong, because it means I get to learn something new that I thought worked differently (or didn’t know at all and made a presumption).

Right that’ll do it for now.

[HitmanDoctor]

I feel like you are purposefully misinterpreting what I said to make my argument seem paradoxical. People like you and Urben indeed expressed concerns about these suits causing confusion to players, and yet, for over 4 months no one actually got confused.

Where is the paradox? For someone who hates logical fallacies, you sure don’t mind trying to twist other people’s words.

As for the ui change, I don’t feel there’s anything tacky about it, and it does act as a solution.

Those who want to have suits that are visually identical to disguises, and those who are worried about them potentially causing confusion both get to be happy. So not sure why you would call it a “bandaid” solution, when it addresses all potential problems.

Also, I sure hope my suggestion makes them more comfortable with making suits that are visually identical to disguises, that’s kind of the point. You say you’re only concerned about new players getting confused, yet you dismiss my solution, so I’m not sure what exactly is it that you want?

You also contradict yourself. The fact that the White Shadow had it’s own unique properties for years shows ioi was already comfortable breaking their own philosophy concerning starting suits.

[HitmanDoctor]

And I wanted to make this it’s own separate reply, to show a quick mock-up for my proposed ui changes. Do note that I edited the first 2 images on my phone and the 3rd one in Paint, so it will look rough.

Ioi themselves can make these look better, but I obviously don’t have access to their tools. Also, the 3rd picture only shows where the placement of the text would be, hence why only the 1st word of my proposed message appears, since again I can’t make actual edits to the game myself.

[Dribbleondo]

@HitmanDoctor

Where is the paradox? For someone who hates logical fallacies, you sure don’t mind trying to twist other people’s words.

I read your original comment of:

“Nobody had any problems with the suit for over four months”

as “People had no issues with the changes in those four months” not, as you’ve now clarified, as “People didn’t get confused for 4 months”. That’s not twisting your words, that’s just me losing the pronoun game , and I guessed wrong, because your initial wording could suggest many things, and I went down the wrong path.

That’s still my fault, but I wasn’t twisting your words.

@HitmanDoctor

You also contradict yourself. The fact that the White Shadow had it’s own unique properties for years shows ioi was already comfortable breaking their own philosophy concerning starting suits.

True, the White Ninja suit has existed since 2021, but it’s been an exception for “suits that work differently” since Year 1, and it’s not exactly been fondly looked upon for it’s Ninja Rules. I dare say it’s an exception that proves the rule as IO haven’t made another suit like this until the end of Year 4. I’m not sure if that counts as a contradiction really.

Also, I’m fairly certain I mention that I’d like IO to clarify the Ninja Rules in the base description.

@HitmanDoctor

to show a quick mock-up for my proposed ui changes

The “Show details” button is both out of the way, and has a generic feel about it, and it doesn’t strike me as special, or even specific to the suit. It has vague wording, as opposed to “Important Information”. If I scrolled relatively quickly (which isn’t hard, especially on a controller), I’d completely miss that button prompt because of its position and wording. There’s nothing to visually tie that prompt to the suit – nothing on the thumbnail for the suit ala failing escalations with a cross icon, other than appearing in an easily missable place on the screen.

Also, in the context of this example, wouldn’t it make more sense for it to be a prompt on it’s own, rather than appended to the initial description?

[HitmanDoctor]

Well, the red text would only appear for the affected suits that would need a description, hence your eyes would naturally be drawn to new red text suddenly appearing on screen. Being next to the view details makes sense, as “See details for important suit info” would naturally inspire someone to find a way to do so. And then they would see to their left the view details button and put 2 and 2 together.

After that they would see the usual flavour text immediately followed by the “Note: rest of the message” in a new paragraph. Your argument against this doesn’t work, as the player who has zero patience is probably gonna make more mistakes while playing the game, like ignoring hud warnings for illegal actions, and lack of patience is not something ioi can be blamed for in either of these scenarios.

[Dribbleondo]

@HitmanDoctor

And then they would see to their left the view details button and put 2 and 2 together.

Problem is, the bottom left is frequently used in video-games to show prompts like this, so unless you’re playing the game for the first time, you’re going to swiftly gloss over that part of the screen. This is more about human behaviour, where important information needs to be centralized for the user to see, or at least give clear signals to the end-user, and preferably, described straight-away, and not in a context menu.

To give Fall Guys as an example again, this is why the expiry text on cosmetics are displayed on the top-middle panel, directly above the title, and even the rarity. It’s information the player needs to know, so it’s not hidden away.

@HitmanDoctor

Your argument against this doesn’t work, as the player who has zero patience is probably gonna make more mistakes while playing the game, like ignoring hud warnings for illegal actions, and lack of patience is not something ioi can be blamed for in either of these scenarios.

…what?

I’m not even sure there’s even a reliable correlation to draw the two together.

You’ve lost me.

[Melusca]

@Dribbleondo

True, the White Ninja suit has existed since 2021, but it’s been an exception for “suits that work differently” since Year 1, and it’s not exactly been fondly looked upon for it’s Ninja Rules.

Objection, I like that suit precisely because of its Ninja rules. Nothing like starting in the sauna with it and getting instantly compromised

[HitmanDoctor]

Well, I’m not surprised I did, after all, many arguments against my points are based in misunderstandings, and accusing me of using logical fallacies despite me not doing so.

You said the player might “scroll too fast” and miss everything on the ui, but If the player is scrolling through the suits, choosing a suit, and not seeing anything new on the ui related to the suit, that means the player is doing everything too quickly.

These players are also more likely to make mistakes in normal gameplay as well, due to their impatience. What my point boils down to is that the player needs to have patience and willingness to learn how things work in a game, because if not, any misunderstandings that happen are their, and not the game’s fault.

At the end of the day, I think the idea of ui informing you of any suit/disguise differences is a good one. I think my implementation works well enough, but if ioi can further improve on it, I’m all for it.

[Dribbleondo]

@HitmanDoctor

You said the player might “scroll too fast” and miss everything on the ui, but If the player is scrolling through the suits, choosing a suit, and not seeing anything new on the ui related to the suit, that means the player is doing everything too quickly.

Players tend to have Inattentive Blindness for Menu’s they’ve seen before as they’re usually focused on something else, so any small-enough change is just going to make them not see the change, even if they’re going slowly.

As an example, In Overwatch, Lucio’s reload animation has an initial canister that springs out. Of course, it’s very obvious in this canned gif, but it’s usually ignored by players because they have bigger things to focus on (such as booping Rein off the point). That’s not a failure of the animator, that’s a quirk of human vision.

These players are also more likely to make mistakes in normal gameplay as well, due to their impatience. What my point boils down to is that the player needs to have patience and willingness to learn how things work in a game, because if not, any misunderstandings that happen are their, and not the game’s fault.

This has nothing to do with people rushing, and I’m not entirely sure how menu behaviour even correlates to in-game activity. To me at least, those are two very seperate events for the player. No, it has everything to do with the human inability to focus on all the screen at once. In the western world at least, you read from top → bottom, left → right, so when you’re focusing on something, you’re going to ignore anything outside your immediate vision if it’s at the bottom or the right. This is why HUD design is important in games also, as you need to draw the eye so players keep paying attention to the information you need to give them.

People who are rushing in the menu’s are probably just looking for something they want, rather than being any early indicator of their gameplay. That is a very weird trail of logic you have there, my friend.

Graphic design, especially web design, is all about exploiting the audience’s vision to make people pay attention to parts of what you’ve created.

[HitmanDoctor]

Comparing someone browsing a game menu with playing Overwatch and not noticing an unimportant detail while reloading is definitely a strange comparison. Browsing a main menu is a very relaxed experience, not requiring much focus, hence why you are less likely to miss a new ui element. On the other hand playing Overwatch requires you to look around for enemies, so it’s very understandable why you would miss a part of the reload animation, since it’s a non-issue anyway.

This ui change would primarily be for new players who wouldn’t have much experience with the main menus, hence would be much less likely to just skip over things. But again, like I said, if ioi can further improve on my ui concept, I’m all for it.

And yeah, I won’t make any further replies, as changing my mind is just not going to happen, not because I’m stubborn, but because your arguments are generally unconvincing to me. Hopefully you can restrain yourself from making another “nuanced” comment on how I need to agree with you or I won’t grow as a person.

[Dribbleondo]

@HitmanDoctor

Browsing a main menu is a very relaxed experience, not requiring much focus, hence why you are less likely to miss a new ui element.

While I actually agree with this, I was more trying to get the general idea of inattentive blindness across. The Lucio example is what I used as it’s visually better and more interesting than menu flicking. It’s the same principle, as you even go on to give an example of yourself. Your brain or vision tendencies don’t actually change that much in either scenario.

Overwatch requires you to look around for enemies, so it’s very understandable why you would miss a part of the reload animation, since it’s a non-issue anyway.

Asides from the “non-issue” part, I agree with this.

@HitmanDoctor

not because I’m stubborn

Yeah, If I’ve picked up on anything in this thread, it that this is absolutely the case.

Myself, Urben, Floople and every other thread participant have given as much evidence and counterarguments as we can, and none of us have convinced you with what we’ve written. I’m quite certain you don’t want to be convinced, and that is a death knell in any conversation such as this.

Which makes me wonder why this thread was started to begin with, when you were not going to agree with much of the takes on the thread.

@HitmanDoctor

Hopefully you can restrain yourself from making another “nuanced” comment on how I need to agree with you or I won’t grow as a person.

For a person who claims to have not used any logical fallacies, it’s quite interesting how many times you try to poison the well.

You don’t have to agree with me here, but outright taunting me is something I greatly dislike. You’re not gonna be making any friends that way.

[Tetrafish_21]

What was the whole point, or the biggest issue that prompted this topic to be made again?

• The boot color for ‘Plague Doctor Suit’ was different from ‘Plague Doctor’ (disguise)
• IOI neglected to inform users/players of the change and that means they might change something else that affects absolutely nothing in the future without notice which is somehow bad

[HitmanDoctor]

No need to make a poll, as only me, the one who made this post can truly clarify my reasons for doing so (Even though they seem pretty clear, but nevermind)

I was wondering if this change was a bug or intentional. If intentional, I asked the devs to at least be transparent about this, both now, and in the future. While I was initially okay with the change, I realized that I want them to revert these changes. Also, there was a general sentiment where I want them to NOT make any changes to suits to begin with, precisely because of the possibility to ruin their look.

Also, my concern for future undocumented changes to both gameplay and non-gameplay aspects of the game is valid. I never said with 100% certainty that they will necessarily make these changes, just that there is a reasonable possibility for them to do so.

Also, I find it kinda funny how your phrasing of the 2nd question on the poll implies you don’t care about this topic, yet you’re so fired up about the whole subject, that at one point you even asked the mods to close this topic, before editing it to say “Don’t feed the trolls” despite having the option to fully ignore this whole post.

[Tetrafish_21]

@HitmanDoctor

I find it kinda funny how your phrasing of the 2nd question on the poll implies you don’t care about this topic, yet you’re so fired up about the whole subject, that at one point you even asked the mods to close this topic

Correct. I do not see the issue with the difference in suits. I feel that IOI should be free to make changes, and they would have a good and/or logical reason for doing so.

And from that, I do not see why this is an issue that warrants a topic, much less the numerous walls of posts it has spawned.

I had asked the mods to close this after seeing Drib’s post had gotten flagged, as if it was generating too much negativity and arguing to be justified.

@HitmanDoctor

it has potential to ruin a suit someone likes

Mountain or molehill? Subtle change to boot color? Or drastically changing a large part of whichever suit so that it’s mostly or completely different from when it was first introduced?

Maybe you’re worried about IOI’s failure to communicate any change, no matter how trivial, as a slippery slope for them to… slide down on(?)

Yeah. I complain about all the posts while contributing to what I claim the problem is.

[Melusca]

@Tetrafish_21

And from that, I do not see why this is an issue that warrants a topic, much less the numerous walls of posts it has spawned.

As someone who has only vaguely taken a look at the thread, I honestly can’t understand how something like “one of the suits has weird boots” could have devolved into this :x

[Dribbleondo]

Because no progress in a conversation can be made if people continually stonewall and deflect literally any and every conversational point.

[HitmanDoctor]

They made a change, that while potentially intended to be useful, is not. You can’t see the boots in suit selection, and even in gameplay the average player is not going to notice any difference. So while there might have been a certain rationale behind the change, all it managed to do is disturb the visual identity of the suit for some.

And yes, both subtle and overt changes can contribute to a suit’s visual identity to be ruined. If I went shoe shopping, and found some cool black sneakers, but they only had that model in my size, but red, it indeed could be enough of a reason for me not to buy them. Color is a big part of visual identity of things.

And again, you could have ignored this topic, instead of acting like someone dragged you here against your will. You said you trust the devs, so surely you trust their judgement, regardless if they accept my feedback or not?

[Tetrafish_21]

@HitmanDoctor

all it managed to do is disturb the visual identity of the suit for some

“Some”… So there’s an alleged or imaginary minority you’re being offended on behalf of. How virtuous.

I thought that complaining about this (boot color) sounded whiny. Like something on the level of a spoiled child. Now it’s starting to make me feel like a bully trying to scrutinize the rationality of it. So I suppose I’ll be muting this topic pretty soon.

Now it’s muted.

“Never argue… (something something )” -Mark Twain

[HitmanDoctor]

Damn, you sure are reaching there, mate. Why would I be offended? I am obviously dissatisfied with the silent changes/bugs changing a suit’s look, but I’m not offended, these words have distinct meanings for a reason.

Also, considering the amount of times you borderline insulted me, I would say you are trying to be a bully, but not to worry, it’s very ineffective. After all, if you had better arguments, I’m sure you wouldn’t try to “bully” me.

Like, I get not being interested in this topic, but again, you’re the one who keeps checking the post. Do you try to shut down conversation in every post that doesn’t interest you?

[Grim47]

@Dribbleondo

I have a feeling this was done to keep it consistent with similar unlocks (I.E the ET suits). Though I’m not a huge fan of the driving gloves on that suit, so I do think it is a bit of a downgrade.

i actually know the exact reason why it was changed, it’s because it’s technically a “default suit”, ala the classic long coat without gloves so they wanted to have it so when you picked the default suit of either it switched between the two depending on the mission you’re playing. so the with gloves variant is so you know what you’re wearing and that it’ll be like that in both missions if you pick one of the gloved variants