CARPATHIAN MOUNTAINS, Romania (Mission #6) - Location Discussion

cake941 · January 23, 2021, 10:00am

personally i think H3 is actually the best story in the trilogy. there was just not enough room to flesh it out imo.

but it was very dark. and people who never paid any attention to the story are saying that the story in H3 captivated them, and they even think the story is great.

i would be totally fine with no overarching story. just mission to mission, contract to contract. but the thing about these games is that the story is necessary to captivate an audience. every game has some overarching story, as minimal as it may be.

and i think IOI can find a balance in the next game. not too prominent, not too in the background. just enough to captivate people until the bitter end, and satisfied people who dont play for story

Freezer · January 23, 2021, 10:05am

Since the series is going to be on a hiatus for a bit it’ll be fun to come back to 47 when he’s in his 60s and is just struggling to climb up walls.

I will say I did like the narrative end to this game and trilogy as a whole even though bits of it did feel like I’d seen it all before. ICA MK 3 will be stronger than ever until it falls apart in Hitman 10 or whatever.

ThievinStealbrg · January 23, 2021, 10:09am

I disagree about the necessity of story. With how many youtube videos that focus specifically on crazy kills, disguises and scenarios, and how many of those have hundreds of thousands of views, I’d argue that story has never been a big talking point of the franchise. How many of the people who have played Hitman casually (which is most of the people who have played Hitman) actually know who Ort-Meyer is and the nature of 47’s past? Most of the surface level discourse I’ve seen about Hitman has been “bald man wear bird suit kill clown with homing briefcase take my upvote”. And for the record I do agree that H3 is the best of the trilogy, but it’s really just the one that troubles me the least.

cake941 · January 23, 2021, 10:13am

in my opinion the reason people have an aversion to an overarching story line in Hitman is because pretty much every single one has been “meh” and filled with cliches

i feel like IOI can get it right, but Mike Vogt takes so much inspiration from so many different games and movies and just throws them against the wall hoping they stick. hes a better writer than i’ll ever be, and H3 shows he can do something awesome, but he needs to derive less from movies/literature and do something wholly new with 47 and Diana

something non intrusive but still captivating for the masses

ThievinStealbrg · January 23, 2021, 10:19am

I think after a 4 game spacing between Contracts and now, Hitman could really revitalize itself with hyper-stylization again. It doesn’t even need to be megadark, but the series really could use something that sets itself apart, aside from gameplay. The original H2016 E3 trailer was an AMAZING direction I thought the series was heading in: neon, sexy, brisk, and the music from that trailer worked so well

(Watching it again now, look at how fucking baller the end is, trigger pulled, bullet caught, minimalist title-card; there’s such a level of professionalism and satisfaction you experience in that moment as a viewer. It’s so cleeeeaaan)

Shrodax · January 23, 2021, 10:21am

Did anyone else find the stated objectives confusing for this mission? The objectives say we can eliminate all Providence members without penalty, which I interpreted as saying everyone is an optional target. But doing so costs me my SA rating - isn’t that a penalty? Otherwise, why bother saying anything about the Providence members? Final Hitman levels are historically “kill em all, leave no witnesses”, and that theme would fit here perfectly.

Silvereyes · January 23, 2021, 10:33am

Absolution seems to ignore the whole of Blood Money, since there really is no explanation as to how the ICA still exists since BM’s plot is about the ICA effectively getting wiped out by the Franchise, and only having Diana rebuilding it from the ground up. Then Absolution comes, apparently Diana isn’t the head of the ICA or even gets to be high up it seems. Seems like the implication that at least guys like Travis have been around for a while. Not to mention Soders in WOA who has been with the ICA since the 1970’s, and that giant ICA facility in China. I guess one explanation is that in BM, alot of the ICA wasn’t destroyed, and instead alot of the ICA simply went dark like Diana and 47 tried to do near the end of the game, and Diana was only partly responsible for reforming the ICA.

Not to mention Victoria and the cliffhanger with Birdy from Absolution, but then I think in that case IOI wanted to just move on from that game as much as possible, even if it was popular at the time with general gamers. I mean, it is a bit annoying. I would think at some point in WOA, somebody would bring up the Franchise from Blood Money, and how 47 and Diana rose and defeated them. Hell, you’d think Providence would of maybe even had a finger in that pie. But then that might perhaps be too much of a lampshade of the recycled plot elements used in Hitman 3.

I do think Hitman 3’s ending is smart enough to end on such an open note though. Feels like you could do anything with the position 47 and Diana are in, and I kindof hope Hitman 9 really utilises that.

(Side note but one thing Hitman could use is to take a page from Metal Gear Solid, and somewhere on the main menu, maybe have a tab that says “the story so far…” which has a few paragraphs explaining what happened through the first 5 games, just for new players to Hitman. Would probably help those who don’t really understand 47’s Romanian clone origins.)

Bjornieboy · January 23, 2021, 10:41am

Yeah, just have 47 do his job, target to target but indeed with the I mission story as deep a now, the targets, who they are, what they do, the NPC’s and lill inside stores just as they are now… I love the story in the missions. (not talking about just the mission story opportunities) they are all written wel and deep. For a game about a hitman doing one job after an other without them connecting is normal so I wouldnt miss out… But as is is also fine exept for Diana f*cking over the ica for a third time now.

Screaming_Meat · January 23, 2021, 12:23pm

personally, i don’t think it’s the ‘best’ story (h2016 takes that for me) but h3 certainly has some interesting and surprisingly insightful moments that are undercut by that lack of breathing space you mention; that is a totally on the money observation.

i wouldn’t normally ask for more cut-scene time, especially in hitman, but it would’ve really helped here. i feel like they were hamstrung by how they set out the presentation in h2016.

whether it was down to the way things have been done before or some kind of technical limitation, they carried that formula on. while it worked with h2016’s fragmentary, mystery-spy-thriller vibe, i found it worked against h3’s attempt at delving deeper into the character and relationships they wanted to explore (not that i think they should delve into that for hitman, but still…).

couldn’t agree more.

as i’ve always said, hitman’s most important and interesting narratives are those of the targets, not 47, so a game that bundles together a bunch of levels - a greatest ‘hits’ package, if you will - would be satisfying on its own merits, i reckon.

it’s also why i think contracts is arguably one of the most satisfying hitman games in terms of narrative (alongside blood money, though for very different reasons). outside of the bookends, contracts doesn’t interfere with the game, provides a suitably existential and moody overarching narrative, and a great excuse to hop around different maps.

i think the biggest issue comes from trying to treat 47 as a straight protagonist. i think he works better as a mystery; a modern grim reaper as envisioned by david lynch (though that’d never sell). i dunno, every time he ‘evolves’ or we learn more about him undermines his ineffable qualities for me.

…and you are spot on about the cliches. woa is narratively an amalgamation of every hitman trope: manipulative client, evil organisation, and ica betrayal. while they do need to move away from these, i do think h2016 delivered those story beats really well with great acting and atmosphere (though neither sequel was able to match it).

outside of cutscenes, hitman has a really interesting narrative delivery system that only video games can do (or maybe some unusual guerrilla street theatre, i guess). a level’s story - if done right - can only be fully pieced together from multiple playthroughs and exploring the full array of possibilities presented by each map.

(they’ve opened this up even more with the new blending-in conversations)

the only mission i can think of that really embraces the potential of that is haven island, where each playthrough uncovers new information that reframes or outright contradicts what you’ve previously learned.

if they can somehow leverage this into the overarching plot (or simply use it to support it), i think it could be really interesting. it sounds implausibly difficult on paper, but blood money kind of does this with how caine’s explanation of each level contradicts what happens when the player gets involved.

hitman has so much narrative potential… if only they’d stop focusing on trying to make 47 a character…

Quine · January 23, 2021, 2:07pm

Good post, Screaming_Meat. I agree: the fragmentary spy thriller story of Hitman 2016 was the strongest of the three games. That was aided by it being episodic. I wonder what Hitman 3 would have looked like if they stayed episodic. It might not have been possible to tell the same story beats if they weren’t presented in one go. Then again: the beats might have hit even harder if we had to wait a month after each climactic cutscene. Dartmoor or Mendoza end with real bangers, and we would have been screaming for the next ep.

I actually think Hitman 3 avoids this potential landmine pretty well. There’s very little in it that’s about 47. What do we learn about 47 himself? That he trusts Diana quite a bit but wavers a little when he’s thrown into a truly mysterious plot. Maybe we learn something when he refuses the serum at the end. That’s about it. It otherwise treats him as a protagonist about as much as Hitman 2016 does: he’s just an unstoppable monster following a bullet’s trajectory. This is Diana’s game, and it’s helped a lot by how inscrutable it makes her.

I really love that we waver over Diana’s loyalty as much as 47 does. It absolutely seems like she might have broken bad. There’s a lot of ambiguity. When 47 trains his gun on Diana after Mendoza, does he actually think that she is using him, or is he still playing along with her plan? We don’t really know, and I like that it’s ambiguous (we know from his dream sequence that he is wavering in his trust). Making the mission in which she appears be one in which she is cold to 47 and keeps talking about he’s nothing more than a weapon – and then using him that way in the story mission – is such a great idea. I was really impressed with the way this level was able to deliver narrative through Diana’s NPC. I wish we didn’t learn at game’s end that Diana has dismantled Providence and it was kept unclear what her motives were. (We still don’t know exactly how Diana feels about learning that 47 killed her parents.)

It’s surprising that the jettisoned Lucas Grey. He had the potential to be a recurring deuteroprotagonist. They kept Olivia around for future games though.

MaxKroon · January 23, 2021, 2:28pm

For me, the Contracts/Blood Money means of story telling is the ideal form of a hitman plot: fragmented and only somewhat imposing. One thing I like about woa is that 47 actually changes by the end of the game in a meaningful way, and I think it was healthy of IOI to finally bite the character development bullet after 8 games of a completely static character. I think H1 did the best as far as replicating the mystery of Blood Money and H2 and 3 did an alright job of developing the usual hitman plot tropes into a genuine narrative that isn’t stuffed full of Absolution sins. As far as the future goes, I would love IO to do a Godfather 2-esque move by showing a fragmented, interwoven plot of 47 being hunted down by some bad guys in the present as he tries to live with the moral responsibility of freedom (maybe returning to the church), because he is now basically an urban legend big foot, and memories of his time at the ICA with maybe a few remade classic levels plus some new ones obviously. I think the series has to focus on 47 as a character from now on (if it continues of course) considering the line between inhuman grim reaper and fully formed protagonist has been crossed now. I just hope we don’t return to the status quo in the next game.

sandor_krasna · January 23, 2021, 3:09pm

I think the Silent Assassin plot where they take what he loves the most would work for a new trilogy or new game. If they kidnap Diana, there you have a great plot. You can make Olivia come back, assemble a new “team” or just use Olivia as the new handler.

Screaming_Meat · January 23, 2021, 3:56pm

yeah, though i think the story was written as fragmentary and mysterious because it was episodic. whether there was an additional technical reason like keeping file sizes down or whatever, i dunno, but it definitely shaped the way the story was told.

unfortunately, they kept that clipped style throughout and it became less and less useful the deeper they wanted to go. there’s some great moments, but they’re, i dunno, unearned, i guess?

i can see what you’re saying regarding the focus on diana in h3, and they play that really well, as you said. however, i think h3 is more about their relationship (i need to playthrough it again though).

we learn a lot about 47 across all three seasons, some of which builds on what we learned in previous games.

off the top of my head we learn that his psychopathic personality is the result of childhood abuse; that he personally values order and structure; that he is concerned with how diana perceives him; that she is his ‘weakness’; that he sees himself as the best (an apex predator) but is also worried that he’s just a tool; that he regrets things and is capable of empathy; that he isn’t interested in politics but does have a sense of justice and morality, etc.

and, you know, that’s all good for what io want to do with him, but i prefer him when we know less about him; when he’s just this terrifying, almost alien presence in a (relatively) mundane world.

(having said that, i love THAT moment in chongquing despite myself. i think he’s kinda talking about his relationship with diana)

sleepey · January 23, 2021, 8:28pm

What’s a clean way to get through the room with the pool table? You can lure the guy at the front with a fusebox, and the middle one isn’t an enforcer when you’re disguised, but the guy at the back blocks the exit and he’s too close to the window, so you can’t climb around without pulling him out first.

Shrodax · January 24, 2021, 4:34am

Yeah, I understand now that “no penalty” means with regards to the scoreboard, not the final rating. I just think the objectives are confusing, because I first thought everyone was an optional target until I lost my SA rating for killing anyone besides the Constant. In-universe, I’m not sure 47 would actually be “Silent Assassin” in this mission based on the game rules, because everyone on that train probably needs to be killed for knowing too much about him, similar to the ending of Blood Money.

Rimland · January 24, 2021, 5:23am

Well, guess we just gotta keep those fingers crossed for that snowy Christmas Whittleton Creek bonus map

Kevin_Rudd · January 24, 2021, 5:24am

Good luck with that

Bourbon · January 24, 2021, 6:30am

Guys. GUYS.

His worst nightmare is Diana hating him and moving on. Did you see how close Diana and Edwards were in that dance? Hips apart, yeah sure but heads almost touching, almost close enough to kiss. That kick post-Mendoza really did awaken things in him just not the fun kind.

I think it’s more that he trusts her absolutely and only wavers when she “kills” him and, instead of bringing him back like in BM, she hands him over to the enemy. And worse, she’s completely justified in doing so.

Again, gotta disagree. It’s subtle but in her goodbye, she says that 47 never had a choice. I think she knows he was being used and yes, she’s furious and takes her revenge but as 47 explains to himself via Grey, she knows that Edwards wouldn’t kill him and she knows 47 doesn’t miss. Cap that off with her burning her parents’ contract before reaching out for him again and I think it’s safe to say she’s forgiven him.

JustAndy · January 25, 2021, 4:41pm

This mission is half a step from hot garbage. Very little replay ability, small linear map that puts Hawkes Bay to shame. Didn’t really feel like a typical Hitman map.Hopefully the 6th map will be coming as DLC.

Edit: This comparison is unfair to Hawkes Bay. Tiny map, but nowhere as linear.

Swangtheugly · January 26, 2021, 3:06am

What a game, I don’t know how to feel, but what a game. It’s a good game and is more of HITMAN 2, but I got a lot to say about locations and it’s story.