ICA Electrocution Phone removed from HITMAN 3

[47Agent]

@Tetrafish_21

Actually, you can use it on regular NPCs regardless of what disguise you’re wearing. It’s just easier to do when you’re wearing an enforcer disguise.

Uh… no. Just to be clear, when I say “Enforcer NPC” I’m talking about NPCs who normally carry weapons. So I’ll say guards instead, for clarification. If you’re dressed as a guard and attempt the gun lure trick on a regular NPC, the minute you pick up the weapon their scripting stops. Because they see a guard (who they were going to tell about the weapon) picking it up.

You also can’t do the gun lure trick ON a guard, because the exploit is disrupting the script of a regular NPC who’s searching for a guard to inform them that a weapon has been found. Can’t do that if the weapon is no longer there. So they follow you instead, since you have it.

@Dribbleondo

Here’s the thing, i’ve never found consistency in that. Some guards do it, and others don’t.

As I clarified and explained above, you CAN’T use the gun lure trick (A.I. exploit) on Guards.

@Dribbleondo

I’m not convinced it was specifically for that, especially since the dialogue sounds very surprised a weapon is just…there.

Oh it’s worse than that.

Find two guards standing next to each other (Sapienza, Kitchen start for eaxample) and use the Kalmer on one of them (guard #1). The other guard (guard #2) will SEE guard #1 drop their weapon when going unconscious. After guard #1 is revived, the game automatically re-arms them.

So guess what guard #2 does when they spot that gun on the ground that they JUST saw came from guard #1?

“what’s that doing there, kids could find that!” or even worse “who left this lying around here?”

[schatenjager]

Well, from a programmer’s perspective, it’s clear that is going on here. There is no programming logic that explains how (or if) guards notice where a gun came from and there’s a hierarchy on the interactions. From their perspective, it just appears on the ground, regardless of how it got there or where it came from. If the programming to notice the gun is a higher priority instruction set than the programming to notice the guard vomiting, they’ll notice the gun over the vomiting.

Also, as a point of reference, IOI themselves refer to Enforcers as those guys with the white dots over their heads. They are dependent on what disguise you have and don’t need to be carrying weapons. Normal NPCs that are not guards can still be enforcers.

[47Agent]

@schatenjager

Also, as a point of reference, IOI themselves refer to Enforcers as those guys with the white dots over their heads. They are dependent on what disguise you have and don’t need to be carrying weapons. Normal NPCs that are not guards can still be enforcers.

That’s my bad. I should of clarified that. I was strictly talking about guards.

[lukefsje]

As my opinion stands right now, the Electrocution Phone shouldn’t be nerfed and should be reimplemented, but instead of simply being a New York unlock like it was in 2 or given to players through progress transfer to 3, have it be unlocked by doing things that take insane dedication like “complete 300 Featured Contracts Silent Assassin following all objectives”. People who put in the hard work to unlock it get one easy kill per mission as their reward

[Gates57]

The phone may be OP but it fits my fantasy of 47 being himself much more than a bald man running around doing circus stuff or complex machinations to exploit the AI. Style is important.

[Dribbleondo]

Yeah, that doesn’t really solve the issue. An OP item is still OP, even if you make the barrier for entry really high. If anything, you’ll just get people playing FC’s and rushing through them to get the phone.

[Heisenberg]

@Dribbleondo

If anything, you’ll just get people playing FC’s and rushing through them to get the phone.

So what? They’re playing them, aren’t they? IOI wants people to engage and play FCs, and I guarantee you enough are rushing through them anyway to get the items that were already offered through them, particularly the screwdriver, that this wouldn’t really be any different.

@Dribbleondo

An OP item is still OP,

You know what? It’s not OP. There I said it, I’m tired of hearing that. It’s a one-use item that, yeah, is guaranteed to kill the target, assuming the target is even the one who picks it up, but any arguments against it are rendered moot, ultimately, for any mission with more than one target. It’s not an overpowered item, it’s just a really useful but limited item that was fun and made sense within the world of this game series and was taken away because of scores. And that’s it when all is said and done.

[Tetrafish_21]

I’m thinking of a board game. It has a castle that the player builds, and this creator… a Dungeon Master can make a challenge for players to get the gold, rescue the prisoner, slay the monster, or whatever. Now, lets say the game makers introduce a weapon that lets you bypass all the steps to obtain the goal. Essentially allowing you to smash the castle the DM put so much effort into making.

That’s a very similar analogy to the EP. Not everyone will show some restraint by not using it. And that makes the work and effort the poor DM (or contract creator) all for nothing.

Or maybe it’s not so much that the EP destroyed their contract as it is did their ego (for what does it really matter?). But those that felt it necessary to use the EP did nothing to improve their gaming ability. And in a way that in itself is a detriment to themselves.

Edit: I can’t think of a more sinful item than the EP.

[Dribbleondo]

@Heisenberg

You know what? It’s not OP. There I said it, I’m tired of hearing that. It’s a one-use item that, yeah, is guaranteed to kill the target, assuming the target is even the one who picks it up, but any arguments against it are rendered moot, ultimately, for any mission with more than one target. It’s not an overpowered item, it’s just a really useful but limited item that was fun and made sense within the world of this game series and was taken away because of scores. And that’s it when all is said and done.

Ok, now you’re in denial.

There would not have have been a controversy if players found it not OP, or badly made. But because they are OP and badly made, people didn’t take kindly to it. The thing that makes it OP; the “free kill on us!” aspect is the very thing that people have a problem with. The EP makes it OP compared to literally any other weapon. It screwed up the games’ meta, and any hope of balancing it by making it stun or be non-lethal would break other rules for other electrocution traps, making it feel inconsistent.

There was no reason to NOT ever take it, especially in ET runs. Any person I talked to back in H2’s lifetime admitted that it was OP, even if they liked the weapon itself.

Locking it behind FC’s just encourages perversing the incentives of said FC’s. As people have said above, why bother creating a good FC if all people care about is rushing it to get the OP electrocution phone? Which can then be cheesed later on when you have it?

It doesn’t matter if it makes sense in the world of Hitman, if it’s unbalanced, then it needs to be buffed, nerfed, or removed. Lore has very little to do with the gods of balance that is IOI.

Five stages of grief people, five stages of grief.

[Heisenberg]

Dude, you’ve ignored virtually every counterpoint made by rehashing the same argument over and over even though the flaws in your argument have been deconstructed piece by piece. Hell, I deconstructed those same arguments numerous times over on this very thread before it was even you I was arguing with. And you just keep coming back with the same rehash over and over while repeatedly letting it slip that it’s really all about how it affects your scoring. And it’s not even just me you’re doing that with.

If I’m in denial here, then so are you.

@Tetrafish_21, then the poor DM is just gonna have to make a new challenge that accounts for the new weapon. Besides, that analogy does t work because the EP does not bypass all requirements to complete a challenge. The EP kills the target as an accident and it’s usage itself is not suspicious, yes, but you must still first get the phone to a place where the target and only the target will pick it up, and with very few exceptions, the targets are always in places where you must take steps to avoid being caught before and after you deploy the EP, so you must still overcome other challenges during play. But let’s say for a moment that your analogy was correct; the DM can make more than one castle. Since most contracts carry more than a single target, the elimination of one with the EP only takes care of part of the contract, and the player must deal with others without the so-called OP item. Problem solved.

[Urben]

@Heisenberg

Since most contracts carry more than a single target, the elimination of one with the EP only takes care of part of the contract, and the player must deal with others without the so-called OP item. Problem solved.

For some time creators added an extra target just so people waste their phone on them. In bad cases that target was also standing in a crowd all the time so you had to use the phone. This made sure the phone was very unable to be used on the other targets.

For me that bloats it up and has the downside that it even requires to bring the phone.

It still kinda is this way with guard targets but usually they are around civilians so if the area is interesting for a contract, just pick the civilian as the target there.

[Dribbleondo]

@Heisenberg

If I’m in denial here, then so are you.

That means everyone I’ve talked to, including myself, is in denial that the weapon is OP, when…somehow it’s not. No, it is OP. You sir, are the one in denial. Game balance matters above all else. And even Level design is influenced by weapon design.

You haven’t deconstructed any of my arguments, but to quote what @Urben said:

@Urben

I get it, pointing out there are personal preferences is important and also valid. But it is kinda sad the arguments are often disregarded with “I see. Let me repeat why this does not matter for me personally…”.

That is is why I’m repeating myself. And I’m sick and tired of it.

If you disagree with me, fine, but don’t try and claim i’m “in denial” because you disagree with my stance, a stance that isn’t exactly unusual. As I said, even people who liked the weapon found it OP back in H2, so clearly it’s not denial speaking to me and these people, it’s logic and game sense based on how the games’ systems work.

To prevent myself from responding, i’m muting this thread. Because i’m so tired.

[Heisenberg]

@Dribbleondo

As I said, even people who liked the weapon found it OP back in H2

You know what else? Some people who liked the weapon didn’t find it OP back in H2. What else you got?

@Dribbleondo

That means everyone I’ve talked to, including myself, is in denial that the weapon is OP, when…somehow it’s not. No, it is OP. You sir, are the one in denial. Game balance matters above all else. And even Level design is influenced by weapon design.

You haven’t deconstructed any of my arguments, but to quote what @Urben said:

That is is why I’m repeating myself. And I’m sick and tired of it.

If you disagree with me, fine, but don’t try and claim i’m “in denial” because you disagree with my stance, a stance that isn’t exactly unusual. , so clearly it’s not denial speaking to me and these people, it’s logic and game sense based on how the games’ systems work.

All I’m hearing here is that you didn’t like how it affected your gameplay and are leaning on the opinions of those who agreed with you combined with the fact that IO did remove the phone as a way of considering yourself correct. It’s been said numerous times one here by others how they had no issue with the phone, and how those who did could simply not use it. And for those who tried to make something that others would use the EP to cheese their way through, oh well, there still those who won’t use it for that, just like there’s those who won’t just John Wick their way through and shoot up everyone to finish the contract with a win and not care about the score. There’s your balance, and the answer to your argument that people will use it if they have it. Some will, some won’t, just like some play SA, some just like to shoot and stab their way to the win, some like to finish as fast as they can and compare scores, and some will take it slow and methodical and enjoy playing how they want. ALL the different ways people play affect the game’s balance, and not all use every item available to do it easier in order to achieve their ends. That’s the fallacy in your argument.

If you’re so tired of repeating yourself, then stop it. Just because your argument had logic (which I’ve never denied), it doesn’t mean you’re correct, and not everybody is buying it.

I find it interesting that you use that quote of Urben’s, when that could just as easily apply to yourself, especially with that little tantrum of a post.

[Tetrafish_21]

Picture this… The Electro Phone sits on a table charging up in Freelancer. It takes quite a while to recharge and be useful. One could think; “Oh, it’s just part of the role playing aspect. It’s a very powerful item, so it just takes longer.” When in reality it recharges based on how many targets were killed in a certain way or difficult tasks the player accomplished.

Yes. The phone recharges on the souls of 47’s victims, and the sacrifice of sweat equity he put into fulfilling his contracts.

[Urben]

Game balance is ideally an objective value though. Unlike the arguments “I like the style” and “style does not matter”, thinking about how easy/hard it is to use it can lead to valuable discussions.

I encourage to do more comments like these:

@Heisenberg

The EP kills the target as an accident and it’s usage itself is not suspicious, yes, but you must still first get the phone to a place where the target and only the target will pick it up, and with very few exceptions, the targets are always in places where you must take steps to avoid being caught before and after you deploy the EP, so you must still overcome other challenges during play.

@Dribbleondo

Except [the snail mine] doesn’t kill people by itself, which is what made the elec phone so powerful. You didn’t need to chain it with anything else to get a kill or create a puzzle to use it creatively. You lobbed it at the target, they picked it up, and they get killed when you ring it… and it counted as an accident.

Because these are about the way the item works in the level. With that people can talk about if this is too easy, much easier than the other items and if that means it has a negative impact on the game balance.

If someone absolutely not cares about the item in (potentially) objective contexts, then there is no common ground to discuss it on, no common goal that can be reached. That is not a healthy discussion and ultimately has to be moderated or even ended by forum staff if it keeps going that way.

A forum thread is focused on discussions naturally. Just expressing an opinion is okay for one post but that should not be what keeps this talk going because of above reasons.

---

Just to make that clear, I don’t say style or other subjective aspects don’t matter. They matter very much for game developers. And because of this they matter when it comes to removing/adding items to the game.

But this is a forum and subjective arguments can lead to discussions that don’t work out here if the goal is to conclude an answer, such as if it was right that the phone as it was had to be removed. This does not mean this goal has to ever be reached, but it should be a possibility during a discussion that keeps bringing new, valuable arguments on the table.

[Heisenberg]

Yeah, it’s getting a bit personal here, but I like how you put it at the beginning there @Urben.

Alright, let me do an all-cards-on-the-table thing here:

Most of this argument is moot, as the EP is in fact gone, and we’re all kinda arguing like it’s fate hangs in the balance. What we’re really saying in this thread is if IOI were to ask for feedback on whether the EP should return or not, with some taking the position of yes, while others are a no, as if IOI is really thinking about this. Let’s say for the sake of argument that they are.

The main argument I’ve heard against, and not just from @Dribbleondo, when one cuts away all the pretense, is that those who don’t want it back take that position because then it’s hard for them to make honest competition in contracts. When all is said and done, that’s what it’s really about. Ok. Well, you know what, those folks are just gonna have to get over that, because not only is it not fair to those of us who like the EP to have it taken from us, but that isn’t even the only thing that can ruin scores and contract creation. Besides, Hitman is not centered around, nor even about, contracts mode nor any competitions between players found within.

ON THE OTHER HAND…

Those of us who argue that it should be returned are arguing, when all is said and done, that it’s a shiny, fun toy that we liked to play with and didn’t like that it was taken from us because of how it upset others. Well, you know what folks, we’re just gonna have to get over that, because not only is it not fair to those who enjoy this game for its community play and the ability to create their own content, but we also have so many other fun and shiny toys to use in any way we wish that don’t spoil anyone’s fun, that it reeks of entitlement that we demand to be given back this one thing out of hundreds, which btw we’ve been denied based on good-faith community feedback.

So there’s the crux of, and flaws in, both arguments. The way to solve this would be the following: Long from now, let’s say five-plus years, after WoA contract traffic has slowed to a crawl, and IOI is about to wrap up shop on any patches and updates, they can then reintroduce the phone after it reaches the point that the aspect of gameplay that it truly affected is no longer a high focuse of gamers in the community, and those who engage in solo play are more likely to use such an item. This will minimize anyone negatively affected by it’s return and work as one last surprise to those of us who missed it.

As an alternative, any possibility that IO could make it so the EP only works in offline mode?

[Urben]

@Heisenberg

So there’s the crux of, and flaws in, both arguments. The way to solve this would be the following: Long from now, let’s say five-plus years, after WoA contract traffic has slowed to a crawl, and IOI is about to wrap up shop on any patches and updates, they can then reintroduce the phone after it reaches the point that the aspect of gameplay that it truly affected is no longer a high focuse of gamers in the community, and those who engage in solo play are more likely to use such an item. This will minimize anyone negatively affected by it’s return and work as one last surprise to those of us who missed it.

I see the Hitman trilogy as a game that keeps players busy even far after the devs decided to put more effort into the game. There were periods of time where the community was all there was, between the last patch and the next game. In these times the part of the community that dislikes the phone was still active. I would dare to say the game was kept alive with that too.

So maybe there will never be a time where

• The dislike of the phone is no longer noticable
• The devs are around to add stuff to the game

I don’t see that happening honestly, the game is too interesting to be dropped by that chunk of players. Not updating the contract mode since H2016 GOTY did not change that either.

@Heisenberg

As an alternative, any possibility that IO could make it so the EP only works in offline mode?

I don’t like these solutions honestly because they are confusing to the player. They add an inconsistent experience.
“Help I have a bug, the items is not available in online mode” or even more obstructed: “Help the phone is not unlocked despite the challenge/mastery for it says it is”.

[Heisenberg]

Hmm, good point on the offline thing.

Eventually, interest in the game will drop, most likely around the time of the next one, if it’s a hit. Plus, at some point in time, IOI will have to stop online support for it as they divert resources to other things. Hell, Ubisoft finally had to do that last year for Assassins’ Creed 2, and they’re much larger and have far more resources than IOI do. I’m just thinking maybe they can put the phone back before they do that, then it’s literally only playable solo ( and please make all other solo gameplay like Sniper and 7DS and Freelancer playable offline by that time too, IOI!).

[Urben]

You are willing or even comforted to wait for the phone until a full-offline patch that might come in many years if IO keeps the servers running that long?

[47Agent]

I like cats. Lions are just giant cats, so they’re awesome too!