probably not needed to do a whole thread for this (can’t find any other page for it), but did 47 actually have a brotherly bond with lucas grey or he was just using him
They did have a friendship/ brother like bond. In the comics they even call themselves “brothers” and Grey hands 47 a pet rabbit.
And there are many moments in the game that show the bond between them is very tight and not just expedient.
Yes, they very much had a brotherly bond; Grey goes to great lengths to reach out to 47 in various ways. He has always been caring toward him, and had no intention of betraying him.
The ending of H2 implied that’s what the story was going to do, but either IOI reworked it because of how Out of Character it’d be for Grey, because of the then-recent aversion to “twist endings for the hell of it”, or simply was always intended, and was meant to show off how determined he was to keep 47 on task, but people misinterpreted the ending of H2.
It’s more accurate to say that Grey has a brotherly bond with 47; there’s very little (at least in the games, the comic might be a different story) that shows 47 has the same bond on his part toward Grey.
He treats him more like a traveling companion than an actual friend or brother, and doesn’t give him nearly as strong a reaction to bad turns than he does toward, say, Diana. He hardly reacts except with a measure of surprise upon finding out who he is, doesn’t really speak very fondly to or about him, and spends a large portion of his interactions with him pointing out his shortcomings, such as how he worked for Providence’s bank, he never plans far ahead, reminding him of how dangerous the Constant actually is, etc… He hardly reacts upon Grey’s death, or afterward, only describing the whole event as, “he made it count.” When Grey appears to him in his hallucination/nightmare, he doesn’t acknowledge him at all except to talk about his own grief, despite apparently not being aware at the moment that he’s experiencing a hallucination, so he should at least express surprise at seeing him. While he does see Grey’s body during this sequence, he also sees his hated targets, such as Soders and the Partners, so that probably has little impact.
Even in the cutscenes showing them as boys, it seems more like 6 is the one showing more devotion to their “bond.” The bloody hands on the wall seems to be his idea with 47 just going along, caring more about actually bringing down their masters than it being a pact between the two of them, and the brief scene showing them comforting each other, 47 leaning against 6 is likely just due to 6 being taller; he probably told him to lean against him.
All this is not to say that 47 doesn’t see Grey as a friend or brother, but even when he (supposedly, stupid retcon) had emotions and when he (supposedly, stupid story) had his emotions restored along with his memories, he doesn’t express that. He speaks to Grey the same way he speaks to Smith. This tells me that either 47 has always been virtually emotionless, except in moments of extreme anger or care towards animals (canon lore until H2 threw it in question ), or Grey is the one who actually feels a brotherly bond toward 47 and 47 just goes along with it for expediency, but doesn’t really feel anymore toward him than he does anyone else.
I personally would except either or both explanations.
I feel like 47 did care for Grey in his own way. After all, he did wear Grey’s jacket after he died all the way from Dartmoor to Berlin
I think that 47 sees Grey as a brother/friend. He wouldn’t trust him that much and easily if not. And there are enough moments that show their deep relationship, but of course it’s not hugs and flowers, because 47 is just not the type for this. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t care. And when we see his shocked eyes when he hears the gunshots and that he was about to start a shootout to save Grey IMO that shows more of a deep bond than ordinary hugs.
And about the cutscene before Romania: it is the imagination of Grey that gets 47s mind clear. Grey is the one who gets him out of all these bad thoughts about his victims and about the partners and the Constant dancing with Diana and using him. He thinks about Grey because Grey is the one who helps him finding his way back on track. If he wasn’t that important for 47, he wouldn’t have hallucinated him in that moment.
Perhaps, but I still get the sense that their relationship means more to Grey than it does to 47.
And yet he seems pretty damn motivated in ending Providence. Remember, back at The Institute when Grey was trying to make him remember their pact, he was in a lot of denial, actively choosing to believe Grey was just a terrorist who had taken a likening to him. After he convinces him by showing their bloody handprint and pact, he’s much more receptive.
It’s quite hard for 47 to emote when he’s learning how to again. For almost 30 years he’s been shut off from the rest of the world; it’s gonna take time for him to adjust (something “Gifts and Curses” even shows you). 47 is aloof because that’s how he’s always been. People don’t change overnight.
Very much a different story.
I love how you didn’t give examples of the former, but had ample examples of the latter.
How is him working for a Providence bank a shortcoming? He found out Cobb was a Providence Operative by seemingly accident. This gets him more motivated to rid the world of their influence and, if anything, starts his planning; that’s not a shortcoming.
Grey does plan ahead, even in the comics the one issue has been his hastiness and improv of how to fix things, not his planning capabilities. His plan to tear down the Institute failed because 47 killed the people trying to help them in a fit of emotional rage; rage spurred on after being free of Ort-Meyers’ drugs that suppressed some of their wills of life.
His Freedom Fighter cell got dismantled because the ICA is far more powerful than he is, and 47 is, by his own admission, the best of the best. He started a militia for the very purpose of not making the same mistakes again and not being blindsided.
Him underestimating The Constant has nothing to do with anything; he made a bad call. That’s not a shortcoming on Grey or 47’s part. They barely know anything about him, even after Sgail.
Firstly, he didn’t react to Grey’s death because that would’ve blown his cover. It was simply better to walk away and grieve later. And besides, he was wearing a balaclava; there’s very little we could see of him emoting anyway.
That quote was after he went on a rampage to tell the ICA to leave them alone (which doesn’t work, they just tried to be more subtle about it by hacking to Olivia’s files instead). He had some time to work out his feelings, and he though that was the best way to sum it up.
Why? He knows this is a hallucination? The toxins 47 was injected with are messing with his emotions, not his ability to tell between reality and a dream. Why would he be surprised to seem him? Grey was always the voice of reason for him, so it’d make sense he’d see him that way.
Bit of a strange way to characterise the WOA targets. AFAWK, 47 doesn’t hate any of them; a grand majority of which were contracts he was just fulfilling which he had no personal stake in. That applies much more to Diana than 47. The only people he hated in that dream were the Partners. He disliked Soders, that’s reasonable, but saying he hated them is a bit of a stretch.
That’s actually pretty accurate to the comics. Grey was very much the one to teach 47 about being free and tearing Providence down. I always saw that handprint as “we will take down this place, and i’ll teach you how”.
Retcons are not inherently bad, especially if they enhance the story or the world. So no, not a stupid retcon.
“Gifts and Curses” established that his memories and emotions came back in parts, not all at once. And he does express that; when he escorts The Constant in Sgail, he’s notably got a lot more emotional weight behind his voice. If you look at his face in the aforementioned cutscene, he looks quite confused on how to react to his newfound emotional state.
47 speaks to Smith as if he’s an idiot; someone who is way in over his head. At no point do Smith and 47 have an intimate moment when he whispers what he feels, or snarking about how his plans always seem to fail. 47 has always spoken with a very direct way; mannerisms that slowly fade as H3 goes on.
Little confused as to how H2 threw that into question. 47 has always been fond of animals. Even after “The Wipe”, he tends to rabbits in the comics, and coo’s at one when he escapes. He likes animals, but that’s because he’s confused by them and wants to know more about them. It’s why he has no qualms about killing his pet bird in BM.
47, prior to WOA had three settings; angry, snarky, and calm. Everything else was a distraction.
No, just no. There’s enough evidence in the games now, and in the comics, to prove that isn’t true.
I had everything broken down to counter this whole diatribe, spent all morning on it, and deleted the fucking thing during editing! This why I hate debating while on my damn phone. I’ll get back to you on this later, because I’m in no mood to retype it all right now. Suffice to say, the summary of it all was, “You’re wrong, and here’s why…”
And we can’t wait to read that…
I agree on everything @Dribbleondo said though.
And saying 47 speaks to Grey the way he speaks to Smith kinda even makes me angry…
Don’t picture how he speaks to Smith in the first 4 games; picture the two times he’s spoken to him in WoA. Then ask yourself: was 47 disrespectful to Smith in any way in this latest trilogy? Or was he actually rather polite, even helpful toward him, giving him advice and assistance? Then compare it to how he speaks to Grey.
If you take it like that, he speaks to Smith like he speaks to everyone else, not just Grey. You need to see the nuances.
That was my point. He hardly speaks to Grey differently at all. It happens, but not as commonly as people make it seem.
It is not about how he speaks to him but about what he speaks to him. The comparison with Smith makes no sense here, because with him he wouldn’t talk about the death of Dianas parents or his future.
You said it like Grey means as much to 47 as Smith and that’s just not true. They have a totally different relationship.
Well, I must disagree, but I’ll elaborate more when I recompose my response to Drib.
I wish to use the first dialogue of the game, during the jump in Dubai, to try and show what I think is the main difference between 47 behaviour with Grey and the rest of the cast (sans Diana). Just my opinion/feeling though.
With Smith, 47 dismiss, ignore and quickly move on without putting anything from himself in the conversation.
In Dubai, during the jump, he acknowledge, he responds. He engage in the conversation. He throw backs old information, putting some personal effort into it. He is part of a conversation and act like it. Social behaviour ftw.
- You know, I never planned this far ahead.
- You never do.
- I see someone got his memory back.
47 acknowledge himself as a person with Grey. Which I felt was his arc in the game.
47 acknowledged himself as a person in his confession to Father Vittorio 20 years ago, before Grey was ever even in the picture. He then did it again to Victoria 10 years ago. That’s not enough to do it, for me.
And that he risked everything to fulfill the pact he did with Grey as a child, never questioning what happens because he just wants to help his old friend, is still not enough? While with Smith he’s just like “get tf out of here”.
Also personally, I like to imagine that Grey joined Diana in being 47’s conscience. Diana said that she was it explicitly in Mendoza, if an external one. Mostly by choosing the contracts.
But Grey is his internal conscience, as showed in Reflection.
Even before, in a way Grey helped 47 make choice internally. The destruction of the ICA to liberate oneself is just the continuity of Grey’s ethos.
And that requires some empathy (for 47 to create Grey internal image in the first place, even more to project himself into it) and at least some unconscious desire by 47 to have Grey still present by his side (and what is love if not a desire to be next to someone).
Am I saying that I wish in consequence to have some Grey voice over as internal dialogue for 47 in the future ? Kinda.